[SPOILERS] Chevalier Mal Fet and Marcopolothefraud lead a Soviet Down Under

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

No worries, I just want to keep the lurkers up to date. Take your time - it's a game, not a job.

The main thing is just keeping me apprised of your intentions and we can keep noodling over how best to coordinate. For example, after Nazca falls, my wolfpack will be basically free, so perhaps I could use it to capture your local city-state (assuming it's not Yerevan). I've also got a missionary a few turns out which can convert The Blueprint in one turn.

Otherwise we can talk plans, general civ development.

[marcopolothefraud]

Just a brief update on what my cities are producing. The stone-harvest at Blueprint went a long way towards completing the Holy Site, and now that builder's heading to MBDTF to improve the turtles. (My galley's probably going to MBDTF too, or at least scouting our eastern neighbor.)

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 73

A fairly quiet turn for Russia, as these things go. 




Mathematics is a nice grab mostly for the +1 movement, which is why I took it. This will speed everyone on their way to Nazca, which I suspect is somewhat centrally located. I'm honestly shocked that Norwegian raiders haven't already come by to add it to their pile, but I want to get while the getting is good. 

Afterwards, Marco, I will send one ship from the wolf pack west in the hopes of meeting up with one of yours coming east. The circumnavigation will be a great source of era score if we can manage it. 




My wolfpack will be around the city in just a few turns. I'm sending one up the coast to squeeze through that narrow strait, while I'll bring another around the western side of this island, crossing my fingers and hoping for a channel. The third ship will follow up the center since I know that's sure, and the Hong Kong ships will take whichever course is scouted as best. 4 galleys should suffice, but I'm bringing along 7 because I don't believe in overkill. 




We purchase our 3rd settler in 12 turns, once again dropping Borodino to 4 population. This should probably be my last one out of Borodino - after Aleksandr's Ancestral Hall finishes we will purchase from there instead. 




At 300 faith, we can afford our next one in 6 turns. The new guy will head for Sissoi Veliki and then I'll have just one city left in the far east to settle, Osylabya. Don't know when I'll get to that one, it might not be in this era. My settler finishing at Knyaz in 9 turns will go to Navarin and the first faith purchase from IA will go to Petropavlosk and that will finish the west. From there IA will just pump settlers out for the overseas islands as rapidly as I can. Other tundra cities will focus on rpoviding units for protection and my coastal cities will provide ships. Infrastructure comes when population allows. 

The barbs are sitting quietly at Oryol. I have two warriors and an archer to clear this out. Need to keep the lavra occupied and unpillaged:




Abroad, suboptimal founded his 5th city, but the big news is Kaiser jumping ANOTHER 10 points in science - he's pulling in 51 research points on only two campuses! I've no idea how he's pulling that off. He is, however, totally bankrupt and has been for some turns. It shows the dangers of overfocus on science - you need production and gold, too. I have plenty of both but sadly lagging science...only real prospect of improvement other than pop growth is in getting my libraries out. Not sure when I want to do that - I have other higher priorities.

[Sullla]

On that note, I badly wish that Civ6 had a Demographics screen that listed food and production for comparative purposes. It's great to see science and culture and faith but missing out on food/production gives an incomplete picture. I also wanted to mention that I'm enjoying the reporting a lot; there's excellent reporting in all of the team threads (which should be great for you to read when this game is finished) but I'm particularly enjoying the Lavra + tundra + Work Ethic combo. Can't say too much more because I'm spoiled but keep up the good work!

[williams482]

Quick micro comment regarding chops at Sevastopol, the tile you plan to chop 2S of the city center is (along with the other forest) providing +1 adjacency to that Lavra. I think there's a much stronger case for chopping the forest 1W of the city center, which does not affect lavra adjacency and is also a better spot for a campus (+2, potentially +3 if you placed a Harbor over that fish tile).

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

On that note, I badly wish that Civ6 had a Demographics screen that listed food and production for comparative purposes. It's great to see science and culture and faith but missing out on food/production gives an incomplete picture. I also wanted to mention that I'm enjoying the reporting a lot; there's excellent reporting in all of the team threads (which should be great for you to read when this game is finished) but I'm particularly enjoying the Lavra + tundra + Work Ethic combo. Can't say too much more because I'm spoiled but keep up the good work! 

Thanks for your kind words! 

I'm not especially satisfied with my position. I suspect that I have the strongest production in the game and I know for a fact that I have the strongest faith income, about 20% higher than second-place suboptimal. But obviously my research rates are sluggish compared to everyone else. That's only a problem in the medium-long term, but the more I look at the future for me it's hard to see my own science rapidly improving. The tundra cities just grow so slowly. The thing is, though, I'm only settling tundra cities because I'm forced to! DOTAWE is making a virtue of necessity, because my entire starting area except for the small patch of green on the north coast is tundra-choked. So Russia will never be very populous, but I hope I can drag the cities to 4 pop and then to 7 so I can have my lavras, a campus, and one spare district at each city. That spare slot is precious, though, since I need harbors, at least one encampment, a theater square or two even to stuff my great works, hell, entertainment districts. Districts will be my Achilles' heel this game, since I've got the double whammy of low-food cities and each city needing to burn a slot on the lavra for decent production. 

That said, I think I'm in as decent a position as any other individual civ. Every single one of my cities with the exception of two will ultimately be able to contribute the most important tool for winning the game - more ships. Petropavlosk will get a harbor as its second district and be a very strong tundra shipbuilder, Sissoi Veliki and Sebastopol will become coastal cities once I unlock canals in the mid-late game, etc. Only Oryol and Imperator Aleksandr will never be shipbuilders, and they'll be able to contribute settlers, workers, and military units instead. I have the largest empire, a powerful navy, a secure position, and good expansion prospects. If I can keep snowballing my expansion, I should be able to find more fertile areas to grow and get some research cities down and then I like my chances. 

Australia is in difficulties, though. Marco's cities take ages to grow and ages to build things. I need to look over and see if I can make him a dotmap - I've not given enough attention to my partner in this game. While Marco has good enough research rates, we know about his underlying weakness at the moment, which is increasingly represented in the score. I think I want to take my wolfpack after I take Nazca and find him a city-state to conquer. I also should think about using monumentality settlers for Australia, although that's obviously one less Russian city. Marco, let's look over your territory and see what cities would be better to settle than the Sissoi Veliki iceball. 

Abroad, so far China/Indonesia have been conventional. Roland is playing a bog-standard China game so far, spamming builders (he has TONS of resources hooked up to his cities) and wonders and apparently only building like 2 military units all game so far (and no ships, I think). Indonesia has gone for a faith-expansion strategy into monumentality. But I've got more faith and more expansion than suboptimal, despite Earth Goddess and Indonesia's ability. I can also focus all my faith on settler purchases, while he has to weigh his settlers against more ships, while I'm helped in my shipbuilding by the lavras. Since our research rates are practically identical, as are our military scores, I think I'm slightly ahead of Indonesia at this point, since I'm out-faithing him and out-expanding him. But China is growing very strong and is apparently unmolested by any Viking raiders and these guys WILL be a serious problem down the line. I think I can outfight either one, but they're both better builders than me. 

Speaking of hte Vikings, Woden and ljubljana have also been mostly as expected. They have the two most powerful militaries on the map after Archduke, but so far Woden's confined himself to picking off 2 or 3 city states (Rapa Nui, another one I can't recall, and Geneva). The only raiding he's done is my solo campus, since he ate the citystates quickly enough that I doubt they had any improvements or districts to pillage. I expected swarms of longships to be roving all the civ's coasts, pillaging and burning, but I suspect he kept his ships together as a wolfpack to take the CSes and that's why we haven't seen that. Ljub has been a tad slow to expand but obviously has strong fundamentals, and I suspect we'll see him explode soon as his Ancestral Hall finishes and he goes into Cothon-settler spam mode, with the bonus that he can continue past this era. This team has the best naval civs in the game with +50% production for BOTH teammates and should be strong all through the game, but they're never going to be more dangerous than right now, with ocean navigating-longships, biremes, and unique districts while China/Indonesia, England/Japan, and Russia/Australia are all still spinning up. Hopefully Woden gets aggressive with his longships, and hopefully it's with the other two teams. 

Kaiser and Archduke are, typically, off to a great start. Archduke played exactly as expected, with two or three city-state conquests of his own. Kaiser is a really strong builder, as evinced by his PBEM18, and while I've not been impressed by his tactics he's paired up with the acknowledged warlord of Civ VI. The two will be a good team. I'm outexpanding them so far, and if marco can outresearch Kaiser I think we have an edge. 

So who's winning? I don't know, all I have are the demographics. China is off to a strong start but has no military, and Indonesia right now seems like a slightly-worse Russia, which is good news for me since I think I'll grow more quickly than suboptimal as more and more of my civ comes online. But if left alone the two could be very strong - I just don't think either possesses the killer instinct needed to win. 

Woden/ljubljana are off to a great start, with good research rates and strong military, good expansion thus far and prospects for more. It depends on how much of a lead they can build now while their advantage is greatest, otherwise they'll probably slip behind the more slow-burning civs.

Kaiser is astonishing at what he's getting out of Japan - 20 points of science in only 4 turns, I thought he'd be in the upper 30's by now to my mid '20s, NOT low 50s! I haven't scouted them, but right now this team has the highest combined science, is keeping pace in expansion, and has a strong military with a savvy admiral at the helm. 

My own team - well, we're kind of Jekyll and Hyde at the moment. Russia is quietly getting really scary ().  But none of that shows up yet in the demographics, thankfully, unless everyone's watching my faith as carefully as I'm watching theirs (and works out that like 80% of that faith is ALSO production). Whether or not we can take the lead depends on how quickly we can get Australia into populous, productive cities. So yeah, I think the plan of having Russia build settlers for Australia might be what it takes...or is it better for me to concentrate more power into my own hands and continue to push my own expansion as rapidly as possible, sparing what assistance I can for marco? 

Quick micro comment regarding chops at Sevastopol, the tile you plan to chop 2S of the city center is (along with the other forest) providing +1 adjacency to that Lavra. I think there's a much stronger case for chopping the forest 1W of the city center, which does not affect lavra adjacency and is also a better spot for a campus (+2, potentially +3 if you placed a Harbor over that fish tile).

I bow to your expertise in all matters of micro, but I was planning on chopping the tile 2S because that's where Sissoi Veliki's lavra would go. I also don't know if the forests stack their adjacencies with the tundra, since mountains don't. I'll pin out a plan next time I get the save so we can think it over.

[Jabah]

There seems to be quire a lot of seafood around Russia so harbour & lighthouse could be an expensive way to get population (but that means 2nd district is booked in advance instead of campus etc )
It might still be your best way to size 7 anyway. ..
PS you do have also some sugar/rice flood tiles

[williams482]

Forests do stack with the tundra bonus even though mountains don't (why, I dunno. Some technicality on terrain vs features?). That's why the Sevastopol lavra is +7 right now, +6 from 6 adjacent tundra/mountain tiles and +1 for the two forests.

Good thought regarding the Sissol Velky lavra though. One thought, could you delay the chop and move that lavta 1SW, adjacent to the future city center and the deer tile? That site has better adjacency (+5 for tundra/mountains, +1 for 2 forests, +1 for 2 districts), but you would have to chop into the Velky lavra instead of the Sevastopol one, a relevant delay.

Alternate option: place the Velky lavra on the deer tile between the city center and campus pins. That will be +6 when placed (+5 for tundra/mountains, +1 for forests) and still +6 when you chop one of those forests to place a campus on the tile. Ideally you would chop that forest first, but in either case the deer will remain under the district, to be harvested later at your convenience. 

Extremely minor PBEM18 spoiler:

I did the same thing with the banana under the campus at Wild

Can Sevastopol get a builder out fast enough to be in position for a chop on whatever turn Velky is settled? And relatedly, is there a reason Magnus is in Alexzandr right now? If he transitions to Sevastopol he should be in position to boost the Lavra chop. That also gives you the option to faith purchase the Velky settler in Sevastopol if he's still there when Ancestral Hall completes for the no pop loss promotion. Are you planning to chop out AH, and if so are you planning to do it in the next 10 turns? If not, Magus should go to Sevastopol next turn. That will get the Lavra done faster, or at the very least get the next build done faster via additional overflow. If that's a builder and the time saved gets him to the Velky deer tile in time to chop on the same turn the city is founded, well, that's 1.5 forests (or one lavra) worth of production added by moving Magnus. 

The biggest downside to placing the lavra on that deer tile is probably that you can't put a camp on it, which would give you +1f whenever you reach mercantilism. I'm definitely of the opinion that a +6 district beats a +4 or +5 district and an eventual food bonus, but the food situation here is indeed very bad.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 74

Ohhh, NOW I see why the lurker thread is active all of a sudden after months of inactivity:




Woden and ljubljana have declared war on Archduke & Kaiser. Now, most likely this is a raiding expedition by the Vikings, since neither one really has the military strength for a dedicated invasion. Still, that should provide some lurker entertainment. I note also that Mitla is out there in the fog, which somewhat explains our rival's science rates. I'm a bit more calm about mine, since next turn I can slot Natural Philosophy, which I assume everyone else is running, and bring my science right into line with the average. 

My own turn, alas, will be quieter. Let's work out a research plan, finalize the micro at Sevastopol - Sissoi Veliki, and maybe look over Australia's land and form the rough outline of a plan. 

The main danger is sub reaching jongs early or someone else reaching frigate before we can get our own frigates online to defend. So, Marco and I should probably prioritize 3 key techs:

- Cartography (needs 2 harbors)

This opens up caravels, but more importantly will give us the ability to enter ocean tiles. It's entirely possible with the scrambled tech tree otherwise that we could field landbound frigates and jongs. My advanced cities of Borodino and Knyaz Suvurov will pick this up. 

- Military Engineering (needs aqueduct)

This will give us access to niter, which is a key resource for producing frigates. IF we get square rigging without this, no frigates. Do Jongs require niter? Hmm. Anyway, the Aqueduct boost should be easy to pick up from either KS or Borodino. 

- Square Rigging (kill a unit with a musketman)

Obviously the frigate tech. We may or may not pick up the eureka, it depends on the tech tree. Once we've located both techs (build armory for Gunpowder for muskets...hmmm...that won't happen anytime soon for me; Oryol si the most likely candidate for an Encampment but not before size 7), we can decide if it's better to try and score a musket kill or just plow through - more likely we'll want to just plow through. 

SO, I need Engineering (build ancient walls), so I must slot in some ancient walls soon. Hmm.




I go ahead and unlock iron, so I can get to work on shipbuilding. I'll need the ability to transfer units overseas very soon, and the district discount seems borked for a while until I get all these lavras finished. No harm in unlocking Encampments. I'll send the warrior out of Imperator Aleksandr overseas to Nazca island and begin clearing that for settlement. The other two warriors and my archer will cooperate to finally clear the tundra, after the barb eruption there drove my warriors back with red health. 

The wolf pack moves towards Nazca:




Kaiser suzerained Nazca. Does this mean I need to declare war on Kaiser? Did we set that rule, lurkers? Please let me know. If he's fighting Woden, Marco, I think we can cheerfully declare war on him if we must, but I'd rather not. 

Hong Kong will need to place its lavra next turn as I can afford the tile purchase. We have 3 options:




I am inclined towards the northernmost option. It'll be good for 10 faith/production after completion, and grant Petropavlosk +8 (+16/16 after completion), from 6 tundra tiles, 2 forests, and 2 adjacent holy sites (Navarin will get +6, for 5 tundra and 1 Plaza adjacent). Still, my micro skills are poor so I am open to suggestion.

Speaking of, let's look over the southeastern sector. Here's a rough micro plan for chopping:




T76: Builder emerges, steps onto iron hill.
T77: Iron mine
T78: Steps onto marsh
T79: Rice farm
T82: After 3 turns of travel, arrive at forest.
T83: Chop. 

That should finish Sevastopol's lavra. That's also right around the time Sissoi Veliki will found. We'll have the AH so we'll get a free builder, but we won't be able to have one in place ahead of time. I also have no good sources of food for SV other than the fish and the deer. Is the deer worth 2 faith/2 production per turn? The camp gets me 2 gold, and at Mercantilism will slice the deficit to only 1 net production...I could also harvest the deer (you say I can do that out from under them?) and try to race to size 4 to place my campus, which is about all Sissoi Veliki will be good for other than ship production later. Hm. I guess we might go with williams' revised plan. 

I do go ahead and move Magnus - I was thinking I needed him in place when the AH finishes, but I guess with Monumentality he can really be anywhere until I'm finishing a hand-built settler at IA. I can get him re-established in IA by turn 88, which SHOULD let me purchase Petropavloks's settler around then. 

What to do with the purchased settler at Sevastopol? I could send it to Oslyabya, or I could ship it overseas to one of the islands. Or gift it to Australia! 

Speaking of, I looked over Marco's eastern lands and I think we can squeeze in 5 cities:




Desert Folkore A would depend on the nearby marsh and the sugar for food, and the three mines (silver and iron) for production. It could build a good DF-boosted Holy Site for a further +10ish production (let's see, 5+Australia's appeal bonus, whatever that is) and provide ships and a campus. That doesn't seem terrible. DFB has better first ring food but otherwise seems worse and displaces Filler City down south. Filler City has nothing to recommend to it but could be made to work with a Work Ethic Holy Site (WEHS). 

Up on the Victoria Peninsula, we could fit in 3 more cities: A desert city near the Oasis with lots of resources and 2/2 tiles nearby, plus a good WEHS, a desert filler on the eastern coast (utterly dependent on WEHS for production), and Turtleville in the southeast which could be an okayish fishing/mining village. The only other site in Australia for a city is in the northwest, along the coast there. 

Could I arrange to produce anywhere up to 5 settlers for Australia, or should I focus only on myself and focus more on overseas expansion? Hmmm, decisions, decisions...

[williams482]

I agree with the northernmost of the Hong Kong +5 Lavra sites.

There is no rule in place requiring you to declare war on a suzerain when declaring war on a city state.

This is probably a bridge too far, but what if you used the builder out of Borodino for a settlement-time chop at Sissol instead of at Sevastopol? The chop would come on t85 instead of 83 and it slows the Sevastopol lavra, but in return either accelerates the Sissol lavra, or allows you to save the campus forest for a short term +1 adjacency and a chop into something else a little later. The free Sissol builder can then walk over to execute the Sevastopol chop 5 turns after Sissol is founded (most likely settle t85, chop t90).

It looks like the Settler's shortest walk to Sissol would get it there on t81 and settled on t82. Waiting for three turns doesn't feel great, and it seems likely you'll complete AH soon enough not to need to wait around for that. I had some other crazy thoughts (send the current settler to Oslyabya! Don't place the Sissol lavra immediately, start some other cheap and useful thing and chop it out, then place the lavra! Or start something slightly more expensive, move Magnus over here after purchasing the next settler, and Magnus chop that thing with overflow into the lavra!) and I present them briefly for consideration here, but most likely the straightforward "place the superpowered district on the best tile as soon as possible" play wins out.