[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[Woden]

So Thrawn/TAD select Japan as first pick! Okay, best guess is they are planning to shoot for a religion and take Crusade, to get a combined +15 CS on coastal tile. Definitely looking for an aggressive game. The problem with this thinking is that Crusade is easy to defend against if you have your own religion. Just keep an inquisitor in the city and remove any followers of the Crusade religion, plus they can attack the missionaries when they are next to the city.

[ljubljana]

Interesting! Okay, that seems good for us - potentially we'll just be able to take two of the top-4 civs now, and be the only team to get away with that. None of those are all that good at founding their own religion, though (I suppose Gitarja at least has extra faith income to benefit from having done so?).

The thing about Crusade, as we saw in PBEM19, is that you're guaranteed to have at least one target who hasn't managed to found their own religion, so it's hard to prevent losing games to it even if you do avoid being the attack target. My Russia had all the things you'd want in to deter a Crusade attack in that game, but still lost because thrawn went and killed CMF instead . I guess a team game is the one situation in which that's not quite true, though, since each other team could pick one religious civ and just spread their religion to the other teammate.

So, if we probably want to go for a religion at some point for Crusade defense purposes, do we think we should try to take a dedicated religious civ like Russia or China to race Japan for the first religion to get strong beliefs? Work Ethic + Crusade in particular would be a really frightening combo in their hands, with Meiji Restoration adding up to +10 or more production in every city towards +15-strength units.

[Woden]

I was going to put some thoughts on early strategies but I think I am going to wait until the others pick there civs. I am very interested in how this shakes out. I could totally see the other 2 teams picking not naval civs to secure them, expecting one naval civ to be around when they can pick again. This might lead to us being able to pick Vikings, Phoenicia, and/or Indonesia. Any combination of those 3 would be kill and we could go all out military attack.

Anyways, I have some thoughts on openings but am going to wait until I see what shakes out from the picks. I expect Australia or Vikings to be picked next.

[Woden]

This came out while I was typing the last post:

We confirm Australia 

[Woden]

Would you be up for a war game?

I am thinking Phoenicia and Indonesia!

[ljubljana]

I'd be very up for that, especially now that Japan's off the table. That'd let me take my frustration about getting sniped out on this cruel, cruel archipelagic world , and anyone who played with me in PBEM19 has me pegged as a passive player, which might help catch someone off guard (especially marcopolo who dedlurked me in that game and was consistently advising me to be less conservative ). I can think of two ways to stop WE + Crusade Japan on a water map - one is to try to snipe the religious belief, but the other is to simply conquer faster to try to out-snowball their extra production that way. War seems like the natural pick of those two, since I doubt we'll be able to outbuild Australia with someone like China even if we do get good beliefs.

I have to warn you, though, that I've never played either of those civs before and may need some extra guidance. I can do Phoenicia if we go that route, since I assume you'd rather play the civ that you aren't, you know, currently playing in another game . I'm curious as to your thoughts on how Indonesia + Phoenicia synergize for an early attack - would you still pick them even if Scandinavia ends up still on the table?

[Woden]

suboptimal/marco take Indonesia!

These 3 are still available: Vikings, England (Victoria), and Phoenicia. I don't know if we should choose 2 from here but I am leaning towards it.

A little background on why I think we should choose 2 from these three. I think everybody is looking for some warrior civ plus a civ that is good at culture and/or science. In my experience, taking the lead in science is overrated. In all my games, I have never felt the need to lead in science early in the game but rather focused on getting boosts. This has always let me stay relevant in techs and allows me to build out other parts on my civilization that later gave me an edge or remain competitive in a game. Culture is a little more important and you should always try and stay competitive with culture. It is more important than science. But you what has helped me in games...large empires and armies. Large empires have more potential than smaller empires. I never bought in to the argument about tall versus wide. Wide is always better because you have more potential for a greater empire and it is just more of everything. Tall empires will always hit a limit to what they can produce (be it science, culture, production), where wide empires tend to develop all game long.

My first thought about this team game was to find a warrior and builder team of civs but if we could grab 2 of the best naval civs, we could have some fun. Here are the civilizations' details


Vikings/Harald Hardrada
A top tier, aggressive civilization on water maps.

Civilization Abilities
Enter ocean tiles at shipbuilding, all units pay no movement to embark/disembark
Unique unit: Berserker-2 MP instead of 3 to pillage, +10CS when attacking (-5CS when defending)
Unique Building: Stave Church-additional adjacency form forests, +1 per sea resource worked

Leader Abilities
+50% to melee ships and raiding gives and  along with and
Unique Unit: Viking Longship-+1 MP in coastal tiles, can raid, and 35CS (vs. 30 for galley).


Phoenicia
After playing Dido in PBEM18, I think she might be the best water civilization out there. She gets +50% to all ships within cities with a Cothon, where Vikings is just melee ships. But not only ships, she gets +50% to settlers and extra trade routes per Government District and buildings.

Civilization Abilities
Eureka to Writing (already get with team game), founded coastal cities have full loyalty on same continent, Settler receive +2 movement when embarked (this holds when disembarking) and no MP costs to embark/disembark.
Unique unit: Bireme-Prevent pillaging of traders within 4 tile in the water, 35CS (vs. 30 for galley), +1MP (4 vs. 3)
Unique District: Cothon-+50% to all naval units and settlers, wounded units heal in 1 turn (needs full MP to heal in 1 turn).

Leader Abilities
Can move capital to a city with a Cothon (this project is expensive), gains +1 trade route capacity when building the government plaza or build within plaza. +50% to city with government plaza.


Victoria
England is a great end game civilization

Civilization Abilities
Iron and coal accumulate +2 resources per turn. +100% towards military engineers (+2 charges). Buildings provide extra yields when powered. +20% towards industrial zones. Harbors grant +10 strategic resources stockpiles.
Unique Unit: Sea Dog-can capture defeated units
Unique District: Royal Navy Dockyard-+1MP to all units built in RND, +1 Admiral points (2 per district)

Leader Abilities
First city on each continent provides free melee unit and +1 trade route capacity. Building a RND grants a free naval unit.
Unique Unit: Red Coat-+10CS when fighting on another continent, no coast to disembark.

Summary/Thoughts
Overall, I think Phoenicia>Vikings>England but can see an argument for England for some later era bonuses. England's additional resource storage should not be underestimated, along with the double admiral points. Lots of good later era benefits but as I said in the start->larger empires are better and with 2 civs that get shipbuilding bonuses, we can expand early.

My gut is saying pick Vikings and Phoenicia and rule the seas. Basically make sure nobody can do much in the water. Also, it will deny anybody else from getting a civ with cheap shipbuilding abilities. At a minimum, I think we pick Phoenicia.

I am open to other options and think we should take our 2 days to discuss this and think about options/combinations but my first impression is go for the naval power. What we don't have in other abilities, Dido makes up with cheap settlers and extra trader routes and we can take out a neighbor quickly and expand through the sword! 

Thoughts?

[Woden]

War seems like the natural pick of those two, since I doubt we'll be able to outbuild Australia with someone like China even if we do get good beliefs.

I don't mean to sound cocky but I don't think I have every been out built.

Edit: should add: to the point where I am behind and irrelevant.

[Woden]

Alternatives:

Alexander
Great warmonger and could be used as a landing force. No war wariness and science from the Basilikoi Paides help a lot.

Nubia
Ranged units are a must for defense against Frigates. Line the shores with crossbows and you can create death zones in front of your cities.

Germany
On paper, he looks like a good production powerhouse but I don't think he has ever made much in these PBEMs

Genghis Khan
Good land units and sending a trade route to somebody instantly creates a trading post, which increases diplomatic visibility plus you get +6CS for each level you have over somebody else, instead of the standard +3CS.

Gorgo
Culture powerhouse with cheap Theater Squares. Culture from kills and an extra wild card slot, which woudl be useful for running the Prophet Card early.

Lautaro
Gets +10 CS against civs in Golden Age. Unique improvement provides culture (breathtaking tiles only)

Brazil
Has the deadliest ship in the game but comes a little late.

Russia
It's Russia, always a good civ, especially for religion

China
Could have fun with wonders?

Ottomans
Nice privateer unique unit. +50% for siege units (I don't think siege units get penalty to ships like ranged but could be mistaken).

Rome
Never a bad choice...free monuments!

Spain
Early Fleets and Armadas and bonuses to attacking someone with another religion.

Dutch
Bonuses to districts on a river. Bonus production to dams and sea barriers. A better Frigate and the Ponder is good on water maps. If we were to select a builder civilization, I think they are the best left.

[ljubljana]

Unfortunately I don't have time for a super detailed response right now, but I'm pretty on board with the Phoenecia/Vikings plan, which should let us field much larger navies than everyone else and (hopefully) stop attacks from the likes of Japan before they even get close enough to our cities to leverage Crusade. I assume given those picks you'd probably prefer the civ you're not currently playing in another PBEM, right?

Also, does Phoenecia typically go Cothon-first in (eligible) new cities to get the settler boost up ASAP? That makes sense, but it might be tough to make work given that we won't know where Celestial Navigation is for a while.