Miguelito gets tricked by magicians, but Bob isn't fooled. Kaiser rules from behind.

[Miguelito]

Thanks again Bob, good insights, and it seems like I was roughly on track already. All in all this seems pretty fun, so let's keep Volanna.

Glad to have you Tarkeel. You see that I've also got a lot to learn, so just asking questions will be helpful, if you're wary to give advice because of spoilers. But maybe when the game proceeds you'll feel more free to join the discussion.

[Jabah]

<p>Can you plant trees on top of existing cottage. I had in mind that you need to remove any existing improvment to plant and then after re-improve the tile (which was just annoying for one shot improvment like pasture, but a pain for time dependant cottage...)
(or did that change between v12 and now ?)</p>

[Bobchillingworth]

Yeah, you can plant trees on top of existing improvements.

[Kaiser]

Wow, you are really intending to miss out on a big chunk of the tech tree. Focus is the name of the game apparently.
I need to run a SP game myself with her to get a feeling, any recommendation for the map settings?

Has freshwater acces a big impact on starting decision?
Isn't there typically a scout/warrior unit at the start as well?

[Bobchillingworth]

Bear in mind that SP plays much more differently than MP. Aside from obviously playing far less intelligently than a human opponent, the AI on higher difficulties gets two free promotions (just like the barbs will in this game), builds enormous stacks of units, and generally techs quickly due to various freebies. Therefore you'll generally have a less focused tech path and need to unlock more units, plus build more infrastructure, because you're stuck having to settle in for the long haul out of necessity.


I'd keep it simple for your first few SP games; something like a standard-sized fractal or pangea map with low sea level, all unique features, regular barbs, no tech trading, and most other settings left as defaults. I'd ignore the various "challenge" settings except perhaps Increasing Difficulty; that way you can start at a fairly low difficulty and instead of starting over if the game is too easy keep playing, as the AI gets tougher as the game goes on.


Most civs start with a Warrior and Scout. The Ljo start with two Scouts, the Khazard with two Warriors, the Malakim substitute the Scout with a Lightbringer, the Clan replace the Scout with a Goblin, and the Doviello also get Lucian (who is effectively an Axeman).

[Miguelito]

Wow, you are really intending to miss out on a big chunk of the tech tree. Focus is the name of the game apparently.
I need to run a SP game myself with her to get a feeling, any recommendation for the map settings?

Has freshwater acces a big impact on starting decision?
Isn't there typically a scout/warrior unit at the start as well?

good point re: freshwater - Deruptus requires a river plant. That seems relevant because we have two of the resources and no commerce in sight. SSWW of the starting position would do that. Do I also foggaze a floodplains there (S of the peak)? That gives up the plains hill though 

Alternative is to just move straight into the forest in the east (like, SSSEEEEE), after checking SSW with the scout.

We should have 1 scout and 1 warrior, at least that's what I got when I started my test game.

    DaveV
    Kuriotates-Cardith Lorda (Phi (Adaptive) / Exp)

    mackoti
    Luchuirp-Beeri Bawl (Ind / Fin)

    Miguelito
    Svartalfar-Volanna (Agg / Cre)

    Aurorarcher
    Khazad-Arturus Thorne (Agg / Fin / Ing)

    Mr. Cairo
    Sidar-Shekinah (Cre / Arc)

quick takeaway:

• several of the usually popular picks (Calabim, Lanun, Amurites, Balseraphs, Clan, Sheaim) are missing. I don't know if naufragar removed some from the pool, but I would guess not. 6 civs where not included in the pool at all, then others may have come with bad leaders. Or people just wanted to play something else.Happy not to have Lanun, vampires, pyre zombies, or puppets in the game. 
  
• also happy with mack having Luchuirp.
  
• The three others I see as equally dangerous (but in different ways of course). Maybe Khazad a bit more than the others. Sidar I know the least about.
  
• Bob, you said that nobody settles GP - well the Sidar do . Now we just have to get OB (unlikely, Cairo is hard to be tricked). Can't assassins enter invisibly? But surely not without OB?
  

[Bobchillingworth]

Hah, well, it's true, the Sidar do settle Great People; I wouldn't incorporate it into your planning though. Even if you somehow were able to get a recon unit into a city where Cairo has a GP settled, you have a 50% chance of fumbling the steal and the game automatically having him declare war on you.

Despite what Dave has written in the tech thread, I'm not sure having the Dereptus in the capital really matters all that much anyway- you're talking only a 20% commerce boost from grain resources, based on what's visible, and your best commerce city may end up being whichever ends up being the FoL holy city anyway.


As for your opponents:


DaveV
Kuriotates-Cardith Lorda (Phi (Adaptive) / Exp)

The Kurios have a strong track record, better than you might expect for a civ which can only build three real cities. Very strong economy, and like the Hippus they have extra fast mounted units. Dave will very likely pick Raiders at some point, hoping to take advantage of opponents who foolishly spammed roads throughout their empires, so don't do that.

Kurio Airships also enable all sorts of really nasty tricks, and regrettably, you will not have a counter for them, because your summons are illusions and cannot kill. I mean that literally, if Dave parks an Airship on a mountain, none of the handful of flying units you could produce (Fireballs, Air Elementals) will do more than redline it, while Dave could have it full of Mages and rain down summons on you every turn.

Thankfully they're quite expensive to unlock, and vulnerable while moving between peaks, so I wouldn't stress about the possibility just yet.

The Kurios are highly vulnerable to pillaging, so if you invade Dave you may want to lug around a few mobility-promoted Warriors or something, since Recon units, PoL, and Tigers can't burn improvements.



mackoti
Luchuirp-Beeri Bawl (Ind / Fin)

Interesting pick; I think Beeri is overall one of the weakest leaders in the game, but he does have a good economy. Golems could be tricky for your recon units; Wood Golems with a couple Empower promotions (from the Luchuirp hero) will have roughly even odds against CII Hunters. They're quite slow however, and need Adept support to heal within a reasonable timeframe, which makes the traditional Luchuirp army vulnerable to Assassins.

Because Golems are slow, you may be able to stall his mid-game armies with Tiger spam; just flood weakpoints with Tigers to bog down his forces by making them constantly spend movement points mulching expendable summons, until you can muster a counterattack.

The Luch can still build Chariots and all of the religious units though, so don't think Mack's fully reliant on Golems and Arcane units.

Between the Luch WS and the Ind trait, Beeri's the best leader in the game for landing wonders, so expect Mack to likely land most or all of the nicer ones, like the Catacomb, Bone Palace, and that one which gives you a forge in every city.

Slight chance he's actually looking to rush for the Fanaticism tech and then abandon his civ for the Mercurians; Beeri can manage this more quickly than any other leader under most circumstances, but it's still not exactly a quick process.


Aurorarcher
Khazad-Arturus Thorne (Agg / Fin / Ing)

Arturus is actually Org / Fin / Ing IIRC (maybe Org / Ind? I never play as this guy), looks like you have Kandros Fir's traits there.

Either way, the Khazad military is all about three things: Melee units, powerful siege, and eventually 1-turning as many units as possible via production bonuses from full vaults.

Their melee units can purportedly convert forests into Battering Ram units to bombard city defenses, though I've never actually seen anyone do this, nor have I done it myself; for all I know, this ability is broken.

Assuming you're up against Arturus and not Kandros, you have the overall advantage here; your Recon units should be superior in the field, and quicker too (though there's nothing stopping Auro from building Adepts and giving them Body I, so don't get too comfortable).


Mr. Cairo
Sidar-Shekinah (Cre / Arc)

Probably the best possible leader you could be going up against, I think you're lucky if you border Cairo. The Sidar specialize in Recon units too, and Cairo will of course want to build plenty of Adepts to convert into Mages and potentially Shades, but everything he's likely to field will be vulnerable to your own powerful Recon troops.

Just don't let him sit around and tech up unmolested for too long, or he could build a critical mass of Mages and/or unlock units too tough for you to handle.

Also all of his recon units above Scouts are very quick thanks to having the "sever soul" ability, though they don't hit nearly as hard as yours.

[Kaiser]

Ok you already mentioned the Infernals as an option for us to go for and the mercurians as a potential though unlikely beeline target.

I have encountered them in my SP games, can you dive a bit into the reasons for playing the game as one CIV to then later switch to one of these two?
The infernals seem to be a bunch of units lead by a Greater Demon of Khorne (please insert correct EitB name here) whoe rushes somebody when spawning.
The Mercurians seem to be angel-like without any benefits I am aware of, they probably come with a decent army? So choosing them seems to abandon most of your cities to an AI.

How does this work in a MP game btw? Does the AI take over the remaining CIV?

[Miguelito]

You're right, Arturus is Ind/Org/Ing . I might actually like that better. No Agg is less scary, and Ind may provide some competition to mackoti's wonder machine. Org will be very good with Immortal though.
Again good points Bob, and I will try to make some deeper analysis myself in the next days.

Ok you already mentioned the Infernals as an option for us to go for and the mercurians as a potential though unlikely beeline target.

I have encountered them in my SP games, can you dive a bit into the reasons for playing the game as one CIV to then later switch to one of these two?
The infernals seem to be a bunch of units lead by a Greater Demon of Khorne (please insert correct EitB name here) whoe rushes somebody when spawning.
The Mercurians seem to be angel-like without any benefits I am aware of, they probably come with a decent army? So choosing them seems to abandon most of your cities to an AI.

How does this work in a MP game btw? Does the AI take over the remaining CIV?

Again Bob could likely give a more qualified answer.
As far as I know, it is possible to insert another player for Hyborem / Mercurians when they get summoned, and it has been done.. I'm sure Bob would gladly be a demon (well they are not tied to the summoner's team, so he probably would not be allowed to), but tbh I'm not planning for it.

The mercurians have some nice UU, but their main perk is that they get new units whenever units of other players die (afaik those with affiliation to the "good" religions, or maybe good/neutral leaders?). Obviously very strong. They come out as blank Angels which are like axemen + 1 strength, but can be upgraded to the aforementioned UUs. They also retain experience from the dead unit, it's crazy. Apparently razing "good" cities also spawns angels. Now, they are also on a permanent team with the summoner, which means his units basically have 2 lives. Although if it's done in an all out rush, the original civ might not be as strong?

Infernals have a similar mechanism respawning bad guys, but as weaker Manes, which I think also don't keep the original XP. Otoh they can join cities as citizens or be used as mini great engineers (?). Afaik they are not in a team with the summoner. They can come a lot earlier than the Mercurians, and start with a hero unit that is pretty strong for the time, although heroes have a tendency to die a lot more in MP (Hyborem, who is also their leader meaning if he dies (1 rebirth) the player loses the leader traits. The Mercurians also spawn with their leader as a hero unit.) .

[Miguelito]

Also Bob, in case you are reading here but not the tech thread, apparently mackoti has problems getting the save to run and is asking if you could set up the game using the WB file, because apparently it has worked for him before when you did that.
As a little bonus for us we'd get 1st in player order, as you'd have to start with our team so as not to see anything you should not