[Spoiler PB62] Vanrober in a new chapter learning from Miguelito

[Miguelito]

Assuming the marble plant has no 4 yield tile in is first ring, it gets the worker a turn later, but the wheat farm comes at the same time because we would not spend a turn moving. Now if we're Creative, the worker is beautifully built 60/60 in 9 turns, and the wheat farm is faster than SIP.
Either way you have 3h goodness forever.
Cre also gets a nice 2nd city 3W of the marble.
I'm liking the move. But I'll be quiet for now and let vanrober give his thoughts.

[vanrober]

Ill make a starting sim so that we can start thinking on starting paths and best civs. 

My first instinct was we were lacking food since the ice and tundra in BFC, but looking a bit closer we have 3 5food tiles and still several 3 food tiles. In PB51 and PB54 (The only commodore maps i ve played) SIPing was the best option with the exception of Scooter in PB54, so i dont expect to get any better for settling in the marble. But i completely agree that moving there with the scout as first move. It seems we are south so start exploring towards North sounds best to me.

The only tech we need is hunting and agriculture, also mining for BW, as its obvious. Im thinking on Mongols right now getting the tech path look something like Agri>mining>BW>Pottery sounds good to me. I think starting with 2 workers would be really nice, since the amount of forest and tundra and ice. All this is without simming, so it might change a bit. sounds that farming the wheat is nicer than the farm of the tundra, so probably spending 1 turn in farming the tundra in the way of farming the wheat is the best play, probably finishing the farm of the tundra afterwards. Ill need to sim.

I think ill have the sim done before lunch.

[Miguelito]

Possible crosspost, have you seen my #21? The marble plant looks really good, especially with Cre. You also don't need hunting, and we're playing with a lot of foodhammers and emperor costs, so tech could be a bottleneck.

I think improving those ice FP too early is a trap.

[vanrober]

Ohw yeah we did cross threads. My thinking is that if the marble spot just have the wheat as food wont be as good. Not sure if CRE is that important as trait. Do you think we should get Zara? Makoti values Zara so high, but im not mackoti and im unsure if i could be able to make it work.

But its interesting your thinking, and you are making me change my mind, but: What if we move the scout there and we see no second food for a capitol in marble? Would be CRE still better than IMP or IND? Maybe im too conservative?

[vanrober]

Here it is the siming game, ive put Zara of Mali as starting point, since Mining and Wheel would be the most expensive tech we could start on, i think. I would prefere to get a IND leader with Mali, but i guess its fine. Also getting marble fast might let us get oracle fast.


But im still not sold in moving, im scared of not having food next to marble.

edit: Deleted

I dont know your thoughts about tech yet, so feel free to comment something

[Miguelito]

I think the wheat and tundra FP farms are enough food for the marble plant. The deer is a pretty good tile, but logitics make it expensive to improve. In fact farming wheat and camping the deer takes 12* turns, same as farming wheat and tundra.
It is plausible that the marble has additional resources, though not necessarily food. But as said I don't think it's needed really.
In my experience flood plains cities work better as a bit later plant, because early on you don't have the workers and can't cottage.

I like Cre here because it works really well with the marble plant, getting the worker a turn earlier and enabling a second city that shares food, has a 2h city square, and gets the deer fast (note: a religion could achieve the latter as well, but that's risky of course. In pb49 I did something like that, with t25? Hinduism, but that was with Monarch costs). I have never played Cre nor Org, not even SP, but Cre is unnerfed, it's one of the classical expansion traits, and we have already agreed that we like Org. So Zara sounds great, if we go for marble.


*11 with India

[vanrober]

Okey im sold. What about civ? Do you like Mali? Other option could be India actually, Mist is also expensive and could make us get faster to oracle if thats our plan

[Miguelito]

Let's do a comparative sim for either start to be sure, so far it's all just theorycraft.
Mining/Wheel sounds good, but replacing either for agri should also work, even if it's a bit less efficient.
One thing that I just noted: SIP is NOT riverside, and I think it would not get a trade connection on either river.

I think Zara is not one to go for Oracle. I'd rather have him aim for MoM and/or GLib. Roosevelt of course likes it, although I'm a bit less hot for Roosevelt than before because we're not seeing water yet. There surely will be water, but we don't know how good GLH/Colossus would be (anyways, Oracle would replace GLH, I don't think you can go for both). Masonry for Oracle might make it come too late as well, just due to the tech cost.

[Charriu]

You should be right about no river connection with SIP

[vanrober]

Okey ill try to sim a bit and tell you what i discovered. Zara is something i didnt think about before and now im kind of liking the idea. I ve just tried CRE in PB51 and it felt kind of useless because of skill gap. I would like to see if it works out better that then.

Changing any for agri doesnt sound that good to me, since roading the second city in case we need i think its worth the tech, and also its better cost effective.

In case someone steal it from us i would think about china or india probably. But lets see how everything works out and if we find something better