[PB67] Charriu promotes the arts

[Miguelito]

If we found on the PH we can use the worker to farm the sugar while waiting on BW / AH
Please give it at least a try in your sim before making a final decision on pick.

Also why is there no Agri/something (that's America!) -> AH variant in your matrix?

And why do variants 1 and 3, where you wanted to farm the pig, have just 1 tile improved?

Looking at the matrix I don't quite get to the same result as you - what I see is 5 variants that are more or less on equal footing, and Persia/Zulu significantly ahead.

Also what was the other time someone had Germany, besides Ichabod's PB59? And why pair it with Ind? UB synergy is with Org, isn't it? Frederick of Germany is a cool pick, and the large map might mean that we get to the uniques.

[Charriu]

I did try the PH in two variants one with America (Agri/Fishing) and one with China (Agri/Mining), both with CRE in mind for a slightly earlier sugar forest tile available.

With America I got the settler at T29 and BW at T28, I also got 2 warriors and 3 tiles were improved.
With China I got the settler at T28 and BW at T23, I also got 2 warriors and 3 tiles improved. I did have to use 1 chop

I also went back and did a Agri/something with AH variant. I must have missed that variant in all the different variants I did, thanks for checking me there. Here the results:

I got the settler at T26 and BW at T27, I also got 1 warrior and 3 tiles improved. 2 worker turns were unused so far

I counted variants 1 and 3 with one fewer improvement, because basically I build a farm on the pig that needs to be replaced later again with a pasture. More or less throwing away those worker turns.

I think the PH performs worse in the opening because the worker comes out 1 turn later (no sugar forest tile for a few turns) and because the city grows a lot faster when settled on the sugar. The good thing though is that an Agri start on sugar is also a very good start, opening up even more civs. Therefore I think it's save to choose a leader first and I think I will use Pericles. I will think about it a few more hours though before logging in.

Germany was also used by JesseL in PB61. And you are totally right, it needs ORG. I mixed it up with another mod I recently played were IND has the factory bonus.

[Miguelito]

Btw since we've talked Persia, how does the Bazaar bonus interact with thresholds? For your standard 1c base commerce trade route, you get 25% for connection to capital, 100% for intercontinental, 100% for Pro if domestic and up to 150% for foreign with lasting peace, is that correct?
So the 50% from Bazaar would not help on domestic Pro routes, until you get sufficiently large cities for pop bonus % or base commerce.
Of course Pro's bonus hammers on markets still help, but the synergy with Persia specifically might be less than expected. So it should also be ok to pick Persia with Pericles (great combo for historicity!). I still want America fwiw but it's your call.

[Charriu]

It's true that the bazaar has the effect of buffing the foreign trade routes for inland cities more, because with 100% intercontinental + 150% lasting peace + 50% bazaar = 300%. This is the similar effect to standard coastal cities using a harbor instead of a bazaar. I made the UB with the Silkroad in mind, which of course was a big foreign trade route network over land.
Of course you can also build the bazaar in coastal cities together with a harbor (100% intercontinental + 50% bazaar + 50% harbor + 100% from PRO for domestic or 100% lasting peace = 300%). Note that in this scenario PRO can be equal to foreign trade routes, which in this case is an advantage for PRO, because you can have more domestic trade routes. And this has to be in effect before circumnavigation.
On inland cities with PRO you definitely have a harder time to get them high up you would basically need
100% intercontinental +
100% PRO domestic +
25% connection to capital +
50% bazaar +
25% for a 15 pop city =
300%

Now if we think about a city with bazaar, intercontinental, capital connection and PRO, we would be at 275%. Here the city with which we trade would need to be at 11 pop or 11 distance away in order to increase the base commerce for trading so that it results in an extra commerce. The harder factor here is the distance I think because both cities would need to be 8 tiles apart in the x axis and 8 in y axis or straight up 11 tiles in either direction. Obviously you would need a bigger empire to benefit in that way.

In summary yes you are right the bazaar is more focused towards foreign trade. But it could also work well in pre-circumnavigation coastal cities or large empires.

The important thing to remember though is that PRO helps us getting to Writing faster and with that libraries and Persia is a good opening on this map. The synergy between trait and UB is just a nice addition.

[Hitru]

I will just mention that settling scientist does not sound good. You have to account for the fact that beakers in early game are much more valuable than over time. I would rather suggest, if you want to go for PHI leader, a detailed plan of some specific bulb path and go with that.

But naturally most important thing is that you have fun with playing. So do what feels right

[Miguelito]

Ftr I also don't believe settling scientists is particularly strong, but if it's the variant that you choose I'll try my best to support that strategy.

[Charriu]

I always value fun more important then any highly optimized strategy for winning. And like I said I don't plan to settle each and every scientist.

[Charriu]

The snake is back to me. I did run a few additional sims the last days and doing that I noticed a grave mistake. I set one wrong modifier for the tech cost. Meaning the techs were to cheap in my first sims. So I had to redo them. But not that much has changed. Agriculture/Hunting is still the best with the settler at 27 and BW at 34 of course with going for AH. This also was the only sim which had better results with pasturing the pig first, because AH came fast enough.
Next best is Agriculture/Mining aka China with settler at 28 and BW at 29 also going for AH. Followed up by Hunting/Mining with settler at 28 and BW at 33 also going for AH and lastly Agriculture/Anything with settler at 28 and BW at 36.
I also tested the PH place again with Agriculture Mining (settler 30 BW 30) and Agriculture/Anything (settler 30 BW 37)

Not too much has changed except that the settle in place sims got closer to the PH settlements, which still looses because of the requirement to move the settler. But it would be worth it if there was an additional seafood for that spot.

For me there are now 4 civs in the running.

Persia:
+ Strongest opening
+ Early defensive unit against barbs in the Immortal aka late BW isn't that terrible
- No real synergy with CRE/PHI except a nice bonus if we go for merchants early

China
+ Good opening
+ BW comes early enough for defensive purposes and slavery switch
+ Somewhat early defensive UU
- Trait synergy, but honestly doesn't matter
- Booooring!

Russia
+ Strong late game unit
+ Strong late game synergy with UB
+ Hunting is nice for scouting, but we also have CRE
- BW comes a little bit late if we desperately need defensive unit and didn't hit copper by accident
- No early defensive UU

America
+ Strong early game synergy with UB
+ Fishing is an option if PH has seafood
+ UU usefulness is somewhat questionable because of map dependence, but a medic with Woodsman 3 or an offensive unit with Guerilla 3 might be nice.
- BW comes a little bit late if we desperately need defensive unit and didn't hit copper by accident
- No early defensive UU

I wanna stew a little bit more on the decision just to be sure, but I'm tending towards America.

[Miguelito]

I'd rate them, in terms of fun, America>Persia=Russia>China
Regarding strength Persia probably first?
Late uniques are not bad considering you explicitly asked for a wider map. Re: Russia, I fear there isn't really a good bulb path to Rifling/MT? PP/RP through engineer or something? Sounds unreliable. Of course there's libbing, with the UB on the way.
My last two games had BW (way) past t37, I wouldn't be too worried. Again, large map. Barb spears are nasty but a t40 axe (if needed) should well be enough, and 2-3 warriors can also handle one in the worst case.

[Miguelito]

Wait 2 scientists from a CPL actually get the first GS out in 5 turns, and the second in ten? Lol