[No players] Big epic lurking - PB74

[Qgqqqqq]

I tried using Novice's tool to find fairer starts...only to discover that it only counts up to 18 players

[Qgqqqqq]

I agree with moving capitals, but not just to give everyone a coastal start. I'd rather move players only around neighbour balance (I think you're right on France) and overall land availability. I'm also a little wary of giving everyone an island. I think Korea actually benefits from the food-rich desert more than you might think.

Anyway, gotta dash as we're going out for dinner. I am happy to balance capitals (read: not balance capitals very much - though Germany with a single plains cow means there will be a bit).

Edit: curious why you did so much editing around the ends of the continents? I liked the shape of those funky peninsulas.

[Mjmd]

For the tool you could save a file, get rid of one of the players on one end and run it. Then do same but with that player and a different deleted on other end.

I mean a couple of them I literally just added 1-2 coastal tiles to get to them and did nothing else. One of the civs I moved 1E to an existing plains hill to get them on the coast and that changed 0 of their resources. The naval wonders are just a big deal, so I think everyone should have access to building them.

Ya other than aforementioned couple coastal tiles I didn't touch Germany. That start is just bad. Again, do whatever work you want and then send back and I can work on mini continent and send back, ect.

Give a look at Greece. I was thinking of moving them east to that desert section (mountain would become the plains hill and undeserting) so they were a bit closer to those river valleys competition wise / had some safe backlines to expand to / better distance maintenance.

I admit I made more changes on the ends than I anticipated. Those sections are HUGE. I have to admit when I was doing my drawings I didn't fully encompass how much space was in the west and east so some of those tails became islands.

[Mjmd]

Just read magics comments and I did move huts to the mainland for France and NA that I had sunk.

[Mjmd]

Quiddity and I had some discussion on discord. Its an interesting conversation what is considered a 80% random map vs 90% ect. Suffice it to say we have some different definitions. I may have ruined the character of the mini continent loop by making it into islands, but in my defense I think Spain had way too much room before and China needed an island. Ironically Q wanted Spain moved closer to people, which I happily obliged.

As I told Q I also moved two islands to give Egypt and Mongolia an island. We also had a disagreement on if stone should be balanced. After PB66 you better bet I'm going Tarkeel mode and giving everyone stone. I had a discussion back in PB69 if on a full random map if stone should be a strategic and I was told no on a full random map, but on whatever % definition you want to define this? Yes.

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, MJ and I had a disagreement over what makes for minor map balancing. Below is some of the relevant points, if anyone's interested:

Quiddity — Yesterday at 7:55 PM
This is only the case for GLH
And there are 19 civs. I'd agree if there were 5-8, but most players can't get GLH

Mjmd — Yesterday at 7:57 PM
no point randomly screwing over 5 of them

Quiddity — Yesterday at 7:58 PM
They're not screwed. They don't get access to one of the strong things in the game. ~20% of players will have easy access to stone or marble - are the rest screwed?

Mjmd — Yesterday at 7:58 PM
oh 100% I'm adding stone for everyone
on a non random map
not having stone is PAINFUL

Quiddity — Yesterday at 7:59 PM
Dude

Mjmd — Yesterday at 7:59 PM
I had almost 3 empires  worth of land in PB66 and NO STONE
I had to buy it multiple times

Quiddity — Yesterday at 7:59 PM
This game is a modified random map
Not a non random map

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:00 PM
so it probably depends what % random
like a 95% random
or a 90% random

Quiddity — Yesterday at 8:00 PM
I think this is the root of our different POVs. I see this as 80-95% random

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:00 PM
19 players are going to spend 100s if not 1000s of hours on this

Quiddity — Yesterday at 8:00 PM
With the 80-90 being the idea of moving players which I wouldn't have dreamed of for '73

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:01 PM
I mean I consider 5% moving capitals
and balancing them

Quiddity — Yesterday at 8:01 PM
Lol

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:01 PM
10% doing things like islands and stone
then like 20% trying to get actual land amounts CLOSE
ish kinda

Quiddity — Yesterday at 8:01 PM
I consider 5% making sure Germany doesn't have just a plains cow and then sending it off
Like given the importance of capitals, a full 20% of the job of the map is the capitals
So adding and subtracting whole resources is easily 5%
I think this is the core question. Do you want to make the map? I'm happy to help out if so. But if I'm leading, marble and stone is not getting balanced
I'm not saying that because its a big deal ofc, just because I think its symbolic of the whole approach

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:06 PM
I would like to try to give them a map where Spain doesn't just run over this continent in a walk

Quiddity — Yesterday at 8:07 PM
I am happy to help you to do that

Some context: I cut my teeth on mapmaking for RB. I've easily done it for more games than I have played in. And a lot of those have been crafted maps, which I love doing - but they take a really really long time

So I have two modes: I can roll and lightly edit a map, or I can craft a map, and I don't have time for the latter. If I was crafting this map I would take the land shape and then cut all the players out, find them spots, and build it piece by piece till I was happy with it, knowing that everything about the map was my responsibility - and the players can and would blame me for it

When I roll a map, the players better know that that's what they're getting. I'll find something funky, I'll do a pass if they want, but the person they curse is the map engine, not me

Trying to take a random map and do big tweaks without rebuilding it just means you are making decisions that you ae responsible for while knowing it won't be balanced. It always ends in tears imo because no player is going to agree with all of your decisions, and you won't be able to say "I built it all just so for xyz reason" or "it came out that way, live with it". You're taking decisions one through fifteen on balance, why did you stop there? Why not sixteen through twenty?

You balanced xyz land, why does abc have more than def? Why does one player have silk and the other incense, etc. etc.
So yeah. Up to you ?

Mjmd — Yesterday at 8:17 PM
I get it, but randoming a map and turning a blind eye to one player getting way more land seems wrong to me

The upshot being, Mjmd is taking over the primary mapmaking role, though I'm still helping out. This is why I started suggesting wholesale tweaks I wouldn't have dreamed of otherwise, and accepted some of the huger alterations MJ had already made - I shifted to helping MJ with his vision.

I do think some of the joy of the shape of this map is being lost amidst these changes, which are cutting at the fun edges and leaving the squat inners intact.

Anyways. I've balanced the core strategics for each player and moved Korea up. One thing that we need to do is address the luxuries balance. The eastern continent only has ivory and fur. Suggest we move a metal, and 1-2 calendar there.

[Qgqqqqq]

Deep breath.

Start 1

This seems fine to me. Good amount of food, albeit some of it locked away. A little hammers poor but a plains hill start. No changes needed.

Start 2

This also seems fine to me. Perhaps others would disagree given how much we've moved stuff around, but a 5f agri resource and a 5f fish is pretty strong, and it has a bigger river valley and more forests than start 1 (not that we're equalizing. No changes.

Start 3

Again, seems reasonable to me. This is a bit of a knifes edge though, I could see the argument to strengthen given its a f down on the others. Interested in thoughts.

Start 4

This start needs 3-5 forests and at least one more hill. food is fine though.

Start 5

Good start. Pretty strong, but not so strong changes would be needed. Note: fails Tarkeels test given the AH and Fishing tech requirements. But I don't think that means it needs anything.

Start 6

One south saves the fish from being orphaned at no cost. Move the Fish 2SE to stop it being boosted.

Start 7

You can tell this one is fake. Add 3-5 forests, 1-3 hills. Probably make a couple of those ugly plains grass.

Start 8

I've already balanced this one lol, but given what we've done so far, make that cow a grass. Other than that, this is fine.

Start 9

I think this is fine. A little low-food, but the flood plains and the gold makes up for it.

Start 10

Hum, the techs issue makes this slightly weak start a little weaker, consider swapping the pig for a wet(?) corn. Consider adding a hill, though I think it started with this many. Maybe another forest?

Start 11

Needs some love. Add a hill, 2 forests, and move the cow SE.

Start 12

A bit too strong. Move the fish away? Or make the corn a dry wheat. Needs more forests.

Start 13

Might be a bit food heavy, even though its all at different techs. Push a deer away?

Start 14

Eww fake. Add forests. The hills are fine though. Maybe they'd move towards the rice, think about pushing (though they'd lose the ph).

Start 15

Holy ivory. Make the rice wet, otherwise fine.

Start 16

A bit too strong. Lose the clam.

Start 17

Nice food, but tech constrained. Maybe make the cow wheat, and push the fish away?

Start 18

Very lush. Push a pig away.

Start 19

Quite lush, unsure if it needs to lose something. Maybe add a hill.

[Mjmd]

I like 19 as a baseline. 2 good food and a 3rd weak. Possible move the ivory somewhere outside the BFC and maybe make the hill pig be on the river.

Not going to make too many comments but here are just two.

18 - I know it started with those 2 hill pigs, but maybe make cow into a corn and a turn pig into a sheep or cow.

13 - I would probably make the deer not forested and push the non river one away. Obviously make a plains hill although I guess could leave deer forested and hill green, kind of like for variety.

[Qgqqqqq]

MJ insisted on three food so I've done that. I've deliberately not made them exactly equal though. We're never getting exact numbers of river grass (or even river, etc.)

Start 1:

No changes.

Start 2:

Added a sheep to the plains hill, made the start a plains hill.

Start 3:

Added a clam.

Start 4:

Added forests and a plains cow. Deliberately didn't add a hill because I think this start is pretty strong. MJ, before I post starts let me know if you want the marble pushed away so it won't be visible.

Start 5:

Made no changes. Again, note needs AH and fishing, could be an argument to make the pig corn.

Start 6:

Made it a plains hill (and the other hill grass), didn't move the fish. Note that means there's a choice to move 1S and pick up a fish, at the cost of the plains hill start and a turn. This might be too strong, would be interested in thoughts.

Start 7:

Added a crabs, six forests, one hill, and made two plains grass. Moved the fish further away.

Start 8:

Added a dry wheat. MJ, I don't want to take the forest off the deer so I can make this not a plains hill if you'd prefer.

Start 9:

Added a plains hill sheep. Again, flood plains and gold means I don't think it needs anything more.

Start 10:

Moved a clam away and added a dry rice and a couple of forests.

Start 11:

Added a hill, two forests, and a cow.

Start 12:

Upgraded the desert, added some forests. No longer too strong given we're strengthening others.

Start 13:

Pretty juicy, but demoted the sheep to plains. These are low food tiles except the fish, while other starts tend to have more stronger tiles. Also cut a couple of forests.

Start 14:

Added a wet rice, and several forests.

Start 15:

Added a wet rice.

Start 16:

No changes.

Start 17:

Made the cow a wheat and a plains hill. Pushed the fish away. A little slow but very strong later.

Start 18:

Made a pig a sheep and the cow a deer.

Start 19:

No changes.

[Qgqqqqq]

MJ, I'm really worried about the luxuries, zooming out they look terrible. Can you look at balancing them?

Also, I should say, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'll post these on Wednesday if there's no objections.