PvP Unlocks available to buy from Online Store

[WarBlade]

I think I need this clarified a bit.

So true. I read an explanation from someone who knew exactly what it was about, but I can't find the damn thing now.

[Seijin]

But when you play "Rock, paper, scissors", you have everything at your disposal already and all that's left is trying to guess what your opponent will use. That's a very simplified explaination of how the game works. The skills and the use of the skillbar are much more complicated than paper beats rock. I don't see anything as being overly unfair right now except for those who will be entering the 3rd chapter and not having access to Prophecies or Factions skills. They at least have the option of buying the Prophecies skill sets.

I guess we could just tell ANet to give everyone everything and not work towards anything. I don't usually buy games expecting to be uber powerful from the beginning. Usually you have to work for it. For the better items, spells, and what not.

Is time greater than skill? I think its relative to how you're looking at it. I bet there are players in the game much better than I am in PvP who have been playing less than me. In my opinion, time and skill go hand in hand with this game. You need time to develop personal/team skill and to gain actual in game skills as well. Believe me, if everything is handed to me because I want it that way, I would get bored really fast. In a competitive environment, no one is ever handed everything and automatically put on equal footing with everyone else. You usually have to work at it to some extent. The last game I played was horrible in terms of grinding for skill, lvl advancement, money, and items compared to GW. Yeah, there is some type of grind, but it hasn't stopped my Warrior from capping 173 of the elites. Its not hard to do if you have the time.

Now, I've seen it mentioned else where about thte skill > time or time > skill thing. I remember ANet mentioning somewhere about it. I don't remember them saying that it is the written law in the game that skill > time. You know what? I think people get lazy and start typing "skill > time" rather than saying that more time played does not necessarily make you better than someone else. It may give you access to more things, but does not make you better. It is not a simple mathematical comparison.

Now, ANet never said you would always be on EQUAL footing if you don't buy every chapter. I never assumed to be on equal footing with all the PvP players if I didn't buy one of the future installments. Being COMPETITIVE and being EQUAL are two different words. A competitive basketball team doesn't have to win a lot of games during a season, just simply stay close enough to win the game until the very end.

I don't see any unfair advantages because of this option. I see it as allowing people to unlock skills faster for PvP, skills that I already have. How does that affect me at all to make me upset over this?

Yes, people with more options have more builds and more counters. Does this necessarily make them superior? No, it makes them more competitive in PvP. That's about it.

If anyone knows the real absolute workings behind this whole skill buying thing, please post!!!!!

This guild likes challenges. Here's one I offer up since apparently having access to only one Campaign's entire skill set is unfair. Get into GvG and we all only use skills from one Campaign. Or scrimmage other guilds in the alliance for fun. Have them take whatever build they want, we use a build from one campaign. If we get beat, see if we can try and come up with a counter to what they were running and scrimmage again (ask them to keep the same build). Just as a test. Of course one big factor we have to take into account is our inexperience in GvG. If they have a build we can't effictively counter without using skills from the other campaign, then yes, its unfair and does not allow us to remain competitive.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Does it bother me? No, not until I am into PvP, or maybe not even until I am into PvP for REAL Fame and Fortune.

That sounds like someone who wants to climb the GvG ladder and get the gold trimming for our cape to me. Remember, we only need to GvG 5 hours a day 7 days a week to get into the running.

Get into GvG and we all only use skills from one Campaign.

Right now, the build we're using is pretty much a Prophecies build. A bunch of the skills are core (but they started with Prophecies so it's the same thing kinda) and I think only 1 character on the team uses Factions only skills (BL monk). Most guilds still run Phrophecies builds because, to be honest, other than assassins for ganking and Blessed Light for monks, Factions doesn't really bring much to the table.

[KingOfPain]

But when you play "Rock, paper, scissors", you have everything at your disposal already and all that's left is trying to guess what your opponent will use.

That's just it. You don't have everything at your disposal when you dont grind or buy skills - you don't have a full TOOLset.

That's a very simplified explaination of how the game works. The skills and the use of the skillbar are much more complicated than paper beats rock. I don't see anything as being overly unfair right now

You don't see anything unfair, or you don't see anything as being OVERLY unfair? Since "overly" is a subjective term, I guess it weigh heavily on how serious you take GvG and how much money is riding on the competitions.

except for those who will be entering the 3rd chapter and not having access to Prophecies or Factions skills. They at least have the option of buying the Prophecies skill sets.

And chapter 4, 5, 6, 101, 102... So we are in agreement more skills = advantage?

I guess we could just tell ANet to give everyone everything and not work towards anything. I don't usually buy games expecting to be uber powerful from the beginning. Usually you have to work for it. For the better items, spells, and what not.

There's two separated games here, PvE and PvP. I would go naked in PvE. PvP is suppose to be the test for player skill vs other players, not how much time or money they have to spend.

Is time greater than skill? I think its relative to how you're looking at it. I bet there are players in the game much better than I am in PvP who have been playing less than me. In my opinion, time and skill go hand in hand with this game. You need time to develop personal/team skill and to gain actual in game skills as well.

Righto. The time spent grinding for unlocks are better spent practicing, practices make you more skillful - Time can be skill. Time and skill go hand in hand. Money can buy time. Money can buy skill (waste no time to grind for unlocks and spend your valuable time practicing).

What is an advantage and what is an unfair advantage?
Lets take a well to do American kid and compare it to a kid from a third world country with an empty stomach. The American has all the support, time and money for his pursuit while the other kid spends most his time trying to help the family and find the next meal. The American has an advantage over the hungry kid. That's just the way it is. It only becomes an unfair advantage when you pit them in the same compettition. All else being equal, of course.

Believe me, if everything is handed to me because I want it that way, I would get bored really fast. In a competitive environment, no one is ever handed everything and automatically put on equal footing with everyone else. You usually have to work at it to some extent.

I believe you are talking about skill, not TOOLS you'd need for a fair competetion such as the same amount of chess pieces to play the game.

Now, I've seen it mentioned else where about thte skill > time or time > skill thing. I remember ANet mentioning somewhere about it. I don't remember them saying that it is the written law in the game that skill > time. You know what? I think people get lazy and start typing "skill > time" rather than saying that more time played does not necessarily make you better than someone else. It may give you access to more things, but does not make you better. It is not a simple mathematical comparison.

No it's not a law but it is an awesome philosophy that AN tries (at least pretends to be) to model (especially) the PvP portion of the game after, and that's what make PvP in WoW a joke when compared to GW (so I have heard).

Now, ANet never said you would always be on EQUAL footing if you don't buy every chapter. I never assumed to be on equal footing with all the PvP players if I didn't buy one of the future installments.

Nevermind the wording AN has used then. We agree with skills = advantage.

Being COMPETITIVE and being EQUAL are two different words. A competitive basketball team doesn't have to win a lot of games during a season, just simply stay close enough to win the game until the very end.

We are not, well, at least I was not, talking about being competitive meaning equal in your context. I am saying skills is a TOOL just like all the chess pieces in chess. You definitely have an unfair advantage over me in a chess game, if you get to play with all the pieces and I don't.

I don't see any unfair advantages because of this option. I see it as allowing people to unlock skills faster for PvP, skills that I already have. How does that affect me at all to make me upset over this?

See above on unfair advantage

Yes, people with more options have more builds and more counters. Does this necessarily make them superior? No, it makes them more competitive in PvP. That's about it.

Yes it makes them better. I think your line of thinking is that the advantages would not make a person such as myself, who suck at PvP, suddenly become one of the top players. You need to think what would happen to the top GvG guilds when they are competing for big money.

This guild likes challenges. Here's one I offer up since apparently having access to only one Campaign's entire skill set is unfair. Get into GvG and we all only use skills from one Campaign. Or scrimmage other guilds in the alliance for fun. Have them take whatever build they want, we use a build from one campaign. If we get beat, see if we can try and come up with a counter to what they were running and scrimmage again (ask them to keep the same build). Just as a test. Of course one big factor we have to take into account is our inexperience in GvG. If they have a build we can't effictively counter without using skills from the other campaign, then yes, its unfair and does not allow us to remain competitive.

You are talking about skills from one chapter vs another chapter ;p I am talking about having more skills to choose from, period.

Like I've said, it doesn't bother me until that time I am into serious PvP, but this UAX package is a step in the wrong direction for sure.

KoP

[Seijin]

So we went from rock, paper, scissors to chess.

OK, fine.

Everyone, when they install GW for the first time ever and start playing, begin with the same exact same skill sets for their respective campaigns. Am I wrong? It would be like everyone starting out with only a few pawns and a king to play. Eventually they work their way up to gaining rooks, bishops, knights, and a queen. Everyone is on equal footing then and now its a matter of skill playing against others on this equal ground. I know, this isn't the way chess is played, but GW isn't played like chess. GW is its own game and has its own style.

Advantage? Yes. It provides an advantage to those who can afford it. I do agree that having more skill options provides an advantage. But how big of an advantage? I have no idea what the most often used skills for each profession are (asside from rez sig), but I doubt the majority of the skills are used.

If GW stays around long enough, people are going to want the option to unlock old skills from past Chapters without having to go back for them. I do not think PvP character should be given freely the skills from past chapters because everyone else who has those skills had to buy those chapters and spend time unlocking those skills. Its only fair that others who want those skills should also have to buy them.

Again, this is what I think ANet is really planning for. Unless if they release something like this for Factions soon, then I will be wrong in my assumption. It would be nice if they had actually said why they did this, instead of just dumping it on the community.

And if GW should be compared to anything, perhaps try sports. No one starts out in sports with everything. Their TOOLS are their skills, and most people start out on equal footing. They learn their sport in various ways. Some go to camps or have private trainers and others simply go to the play ground. Different ways of obtaining the same TOOLS. Some people have a training advantage, but that doesn't stop the less fortunate ones from training and improving. Someone is always going to have an advantage over others whether its in GW or in life. People find ways to deal with it, overcome, and adapt.

Newbmeister Joe Cool has an advantage because he just started and bought UAS from the shop. Again, me having pretty much UAS, how does that affect me? How would this affect the top Guilds on the ladder (the ones that don't cheat )? It doesn't affect me because I have all my skills. It doesn't affect the legit guilds on the ladder because they got there by most likely unlocking most if not all the skills themselves and they know how to use them as a team. Those guilds are up there for a reason, because they work at it. I doubt a new guild in which everyone purchases UAS is going to be at the top of the ladder (unless they're great GW gamers using secondary accounts to form a new guild just to prove me wrong ).

Anyways I don't care anymore. You dislike it, don't use it. I don't care about it and I won't use it. Its there. In the shop. I doubt they'll take it out. So really no use arguing over it.

Go ahead, feel free to tear apart this post too. I'm done with this. I'll just wait and see what ANet does. Honestly, I just want to start to do more PvP (GvG or AB is fun) with the guild. The hard part is getting everyone together.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Newbmeister Joe Cool has an advantage because he just started and bought UAS from the shop. Again, me having pretty much UAS, how does that affect me? How would this affect the top Guilds on the ladder (the ones that don't cheat )? It doesn't affect me because I have all my skills. It doesn't affect the legit guilds on the ladder because they got there by most likely unlocking most if not all the skills themselves and they know how to use them as a team. Those guilds are up there for a reason, because they work at it. I doubt a new guild in which everyone purchases UAS is going to be at the top of the ladder (unless they're great GW gamers using secondary accounts to form a new guild just to prove me wrong ).

It affects people who don't have UAS, in the sense that Newbmeister Rich Kid is already practicing at using those skills well, while they are busy grinding away.

[WarBlade]

It affects people who don't have UAS, in the sense that Newbmeister Rich Kid is already practicing at using those skills well, while they are busy grinding away.

That's not really the point that disgruntled PvP'ers are trying to drive home though is it? I should probably say "points" actually. There are so many arguments against this thing already.

Honestly, I just want to start to do more PvP (GvG or AB is fun) with the guild. The hard part is getting everyone together.

Blame my Cinema #5 Kinoton FP30D lens turret drive belt.

[Swiss Mercenary]

That's not really the point that disgruntled PvP'ers are trying to drive home though is it? I should probably say "points" actually. There are so many arguments against this thing already.

No, that's not the point at all (seeing as how it makes for a fairly weak one).

[Lurker Wyrm]

So has anyone confirmed either way whether this requires you to own Prophecies in order to purchase the skills? If it does, then yeah it's stupid. If it doesn't then it can make sense like Seijin said. If you're a PvP only player and you have Factions (but not Prophecies) then it doesn't make much sense to buy an entire campaign just to go through the unlock process and not get access to any additional modes of PvP since all of the Prophecies arenas are on the Battle Isles.

I'd also be interested to know whether they plan to add a cross-campaign skill master to the game so people can use these unlocked skills on their PvE characters. Granted, you still wouldn't be able to get the elites (unless ANet does something insane like add an elite skill trainer to the end-game which, at this point, I wouldn't put past them) but you could use some of the skills that are from Prophecies that can help out in certain situations.

It affects people who don't have UAS, in the sense that Newbmeister Rich Kid is already practicing at using those skills well, while they are busy grinding away.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that Mr. Joe Nobody started GW with Factions and, thanks to the really pitiful PvE but pretty nice PvP options it contains he decides he wants to play GW as a PvP outlet for himself. So he gets good with assassins and sword warriors and all that stuff but is getting disheartened seeing people throw Eviscerate in his face all the time and his choices for an axe elite are Cleave, Triple Chop or Whirling Axe, none of which really can be used to spike. He's been playing Factions since release and has been in and out of HA, found a GvG guild, unlocked every Factions skill, etc. so he's not just some random newbie anymore. He wants to be competative with the rest of the GW community, so he knows he needs those Prophecies skills. The only problem is that he was so disheartened by the PvE in Factions that he can't stand to have to go through an even longer campaign of the same boring stuff. Enter the option to buy the skills he needs/wants. So now he's got a choice: does he pay $40 to spend 60+ hours unlocking skills yet again, or does he pay the same amount to have access to them without going through the hassle of pointless quests and boring missions with at least 3 characters or spend the countless time it takes to unlock with Balthazar Faction. He's already a year behind most other players and he doesn't want to feel like he's going to have to play catch-up for the rest of his GW experience -- he doesn't want to still be working on getting the rest of those Prophecies skills when Nightfall comes out and puts him even farther behind, all the while detracting from his PvP playing experience where he could have been learning more important things such as battlefield positioning.

Well, anyways, that entire argument is entirely moot if it requires you to own the campaign before being able to purchase the skills.

[Roland]

It affects people who don't have UAS, in the sense that Newbmeister Rich Kid is already practicing at using those skills well, while they are busy grinding away.

What about those of us who are FAR from rich, and simply don't have the TIME and ENERGY to endlessly (and boringly) grind for faction, quests, captures, etc. for any class (let alone all of them) because we're too busy working? Is it so wrong for us, people like ME, to drop a couple of our hard-earned dollars on a game to give us the same advantage those who DO have the luxury of time (and yes, time is a luxury, just as much as money is) have? What's so wrong about that?

What if I wanted to try out some wacky build that I've never tried before, with a Mesmer and a Ranger, and I don't have any Mesmer or Ranger skills because I only play Warriors and Necromancers? Should I have to slog endlessly with almost no hope of getting anything unlocked before the NEXT Chapter comes out, simply because I don't have the time?

I understand where those of you against this are coming from, but please, for ONE moment, pull your head out of your cynical (and perhaps rightly so) rear and look at the OTHER side of the coin. There are those of us who this is designed for who won't abuse the system, and instead embrace it for filling a very large hole in our gaming. I happen to be one of those.

I'm not getting into this debate. I don't play GW nearly enough to have any worthwhile contribution, simply because I don't have the same experience all of you do (I don't even know what UAS and UAX are). But in all your exhaustive venting, none of you have even considered the possible good this could do, save one person, and he didn't even touch upon the point I raised. I simply had to put it out on the table.

Personally, I don't see this as game-breaking enough to warrant quitting the game, but I can very easily see it as being the "last straw" if you were already on the fence. To each their own, though. This may just be the fix for MY problem: wanting PvP without the PvE, simply because I don't have the time for PvE (at least, not beyond VERY casual play). I enjoy the PvE side of the game, but I bought it specifically for the PvP side. When I saw just how much work is required, I gave up. $100 blown on a game that I have no hope of ever enjoying simply because I can't compete with the masses. I can't keep up. This solves that, without giving me ANY edge in PvP other than more options, options which everyone who HAS slogged through the game already have. You spend what you have: you can use your time, I'll use my money, if I feel it's warranted.

Edit:
Lurker Wyrm touched closely upon my point. Thank you for that insightful post LW. Personally, I'm honestly thinking about saving up for this little gem. I've always wanted PvP gameplay. It's just the mind-numbing PvE that kills my enthusiasm for the game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it in small doses, but I could never grind enough to get ANYTHING unlocked. I just don't have the time nor patience. It's boring to me, moreso than most MMOs, and just doesn't feel rewarding enough, even when I was slowly grinding faction. I'd rather have all the skills for a fee, and have the freedom to experiment to my enemies' or my own peril. But hey, that's me. I don't expect any of you to feel that way, especially since you're all so much more active in this game than I am. I WANT to like GW more than I do, but it's awfully hard when it's so daunting to get what I want (PvP).