A couple noob questions about colony ships

[sargon0]

I could swear I've seen the Pirate event at Orion while the Guardian is present, with an effect that amounts to, "All trade effectively ceases for the remainder of the game (or until you take Orion...)." Could be wrong about this, though.

My statement comes straight from the guide but I thought while writing it that I have heard mention of Pirates at Orion with Guardian. Oh well, another manual error or more likely a bug since it seems a little harsh.

[Megafrost]

So wait, where's the dividing line between when you can or cannot get a random event? Is it 4 or less, or less than 4? I had a game once where the AI had reduced me to a 4-planet empire (from 9), and then I lost two more planets when I got attacked by an amoeba. I was one of the weakest empires at that point. It pissed me off to no end.

(I managed to win that game though, the AI kinda sucks late game)

[sargon0]

According to the guide, no player with 4 or fewer planets is subject to any random event occurrence, good or bad. Perhaps this is only for events which 'choose' a victim. The Space monsters start at a random location by a map edge and proceed to the nearest planet then move on to a random planet within 6 parsecs (max 5 planet kills) - no race is chosen. Either that or the fact you once had more than 4 planets is remembered. Bad luck either way.

[jmas]

Hey, you guys forgot Poland , er, the Space Crystal. (Except that sargon did refer to "space monsters" in the plural).

(Anyone not from the U.S. may not get the above joke, but then again, maybe you will, if you've heard some statements from our president or riffs thereon).

I have the guide and have read where it says the monsters start at random locations at the edge of the galaxy.. but it does seem to me that they've started on the edge of my empire an awful lot of times. Like in my (still not yet complete) "Another Meklar Corner" game, where I got both of the monsters in rapid succession. Neither one even started close to where my empire bordered other ones.

I also think I have seen Pirates occur at Orion, quite a while back.

I have been tracking trade revenues recently in an effort to figure out to what extent trade is worth it for me. Looking here at my notes from a game I played as the Humans (I do realize they are supposed to get more benefit from trade), I see that my revenues went from 120 the turn before the Pirates were announced, to 163 the turn after, a big jump UP, with no other significant occurrences to explain the change. However, revenues then showed a loss of -2 and then posted slow gains (~+2 to +5) until the pirates were eliminated, at which time there was a gain the following turn of +16 and then gains of ~+5 to +12.

Do these numbers accurately reflect the revenues I was getting? I'm not sure, that might require looking at the code. Maybe the "pirate effect" is not factored into what is displayed on the Planets screen. I know the issue has been raised of whether the percentages on the tech screen are accurate or not.. I also know the guide says that Pirates only affect you if you are the race, or are in contact with the race, who owns the system where they occur. In that game I was in contact with the race who owned the system (in fact, I was in contact with all races at the time IIRC).

We could start a new thread to discuss trade if people want. In any case, I am interested to see if anyone knows whether AIs also start at -30% revenue and slowly (VERY slowly) work up to 100% (with the Human race starting at -5% and capable of reaching 125% of an agreed-upon amount according to the strategy guide). If AIs do NOT start at negative revenue when trading with the human player, then trade starts to look more like a payment plan for tribute, albeit with the possibility of eventually recovering the expenses, if war isn't declared first by AIs.

[DaveV]

I've never had the derelict event happen to me (the human player) over the course of >100 games. I'm convinced this event can't happen to the player, which would skew the events even more in the negative direction. Has anyone else ever found the derelict?

[sargon0]

Hey, you guys forgot Poland , er, the Space Crystal. (Except that sargon did refer to "space monsters" in the plural).
....
In any case, I am interested to see if anyone knows whether AIs also start at -30% revenue and slowly (VERY slowly) work up to 100% (with the Human race starting at -5% and capable of reaching 125% of an agreed-upon amount according to the strategy guide).

And Crystal makes 16 - thanks jmas. Changes the odds a liitle but so does seperating targeted events from 'random' ones.

On trade, I can confirm the AI's start at -30% and increase slowly just like you but I didn't test any further.

DaveV: There is no mention about weighting events but derelict does seem rare. I have had this event but since good events mostly happen to players struggling this may say more about my play than my luck.

[jmas]

Thank you sargon for checking on AI trade revenues; it's helpful to know that trade doesn't benefit the AIs more than the human player!

Since the strategy guide says that AIs "are very big on trading with each other", I wonder if they tend to form large trade agreements with multiple other races, such that the combined effect of these agreements might really set back their economy for a while with all the negative revenues. It must be possible, since I've done it to my own economy before with overzealous trading .

Also, if you have a larger economy than a given AI, it seems like you could use trade to impair their economy more than yours if you keep upping an agreement to the maximum the AI can trade (since revenues will fall each time). Of course, IMO, if you have a larger economy than an AI and they don't have any way of catching up soon, then the writing is on the wall already (except maybe if they are the Psilons and still have a significant tech lead)...

[Sullla]

Also, if you have a larger economy than a given AI, it seems like you could use trade to impair their economy more than yours if you keep upping an agreement to the maximum the AI can trade (since revenues will fall each time).

Good idea, but you actually can't do this in practice. Trade is limited to a certain percentage of what the weaker economy can support. Try trading with some pathetic one or two planet empire in the latter stages of the game, and you'll see that they can only support minimal trade of 50BC (or something like that).

Would be fun if that wasn't the case!

[jmas]

Good idea, but you actually can't do this in practice. Trade is limited to a certain percentage of what the weaker economy can support. Try trading with some pathetic one or two planet empire in the latter stages of the game, and you'll see that they can only support minimal trade of 50BC (or something like that).

Would be fun if that wasn't the case!

You can do it, but on doing calculations I see it isn't exactly overwhelming. The limit to trade is 25% of the weaker economy; so say an AI is producing 1000 BC per turn (to give them a somewhat respectable amount), then they can trade 250 BC per turn, which will start at -30% or -75 BC per turn as long as they aren't the Humans. That's -7.5% of their total economy; a liability I probably wouldn't want on my "balance sheet" if you will, just to trade with a stronger opponent! But it's hardly crushing. It might be more significant if they are *also* trading that same amount with other AIs (though I'm not sure if that could be determined, and it's certainly not info available in-game); imagine that -7.5% multiplied several times!

[pkrcel]

Well, I should second Sulla's feelings... suppose the 7.5% is multiplied by 5 that makes 37.5%...which is subject to a LOT of conditions...

...like for example lasting for one turn, and diminishing i 5-10 turns....
..or the fact that this has the following prerequisites:

- being in contact with 6 races
- open trade with ALL at the very same time, for the maximum amount...give that ALL would like it....seems more Human-ish :P
- being the smallest economy in the game..otherwise the "penalty" will inevitably be lower.

Just too many to get to "force" an AI to it...still I am fairly convinced that Ais do not generally open trade (or open too much) if it will be hurting their economy overall....not that I am THAT experienced to be 100% sure....