[PBEM9 - SPOILERS] Willem van Oranje of Mali

[Ilios]

Are you at war with Pegasus ?

[Kodii]

Not since T71. We will see after this turn. I'll keep you updated.

[Kodii]

Here is the disputed location:



My new city of Boundary cuts off Pegasus from the west. However, had I let Pegasus settle that location, he would be in prime location to launch an assault on me from any direction. Unfortunately, my current defenses in the city are paper-thin and Pegasus could choose to raze it next turn.

Here is our ongoing communication:

Greetings Kodii,

I hope everything is fareing well for your civ. I see Stadium heading West over towards the Barb state. We wish you happy plundering.
What are your opinions on NAPs? Would you be interested in one?

Kind regards,

Pegasus

Hello Pegasus,

Thanks for the well wishes!

A NAP would please me to no end. What terms did you have in mind?

Also, I am looking to found a new city, but only recently discovered that you have a very culturous (is that a word?) city in the nearby vicinity. I was wondering whether you would mind if I settled a border city 1S of the silks where my warrior Burrard is currently situated. The only overlap in our city BFCs would be the riverside desert hill, which will likely remain yours for the remainder of the game given your current cultural status.

I look forward to hearing back from you!

- Kodii

Hello Kodi,

Thanks for the quick response.

Regarding the NAP, I was just throwing the idea out there really, I care not for NAP's really, as I see them as possible obstructions in forward planning, and beleive that a good relationship could work without any such thing in place. If however, it gives you peace of mind, then I am happy to agree to such a thing.

We could look at say 30 turns with a 10 turn cool down if you like?

Now the sticking point

I'll not beat about the bush. Your proposed city placement will leave me no choice in the very near future, but to attack you, which I feel would not benefit either of us and in all honesty a path I do not wish to persue. Your cleverly placed 3rd city on the Gold west of Hastings has squeezed me very much up in the north. Unfortuantely the Mountain Range, NW of Silks is very useful for my defence, but alas also blocks my way in the north and you placing your city in that so said square would shut me out from the centre completely unless I travel by sea. I was actually toying with Settling on the same said square you mentioned, or maybe on the silks or 2 west of the silks.

I was hoping that we could come to an agreement whereby I let you take the land to the South towards the centre whilst I tried to obtain the lands north of it? How does that sound? Problem I have is I need to settle in the vacinity mentioned above to keep cultural borders, plus a natural defence line, otherwise I can just see you picking me off at a later time.

Let me know your thoughts on how we can settle this?

Pegasus

Hi Pegasus,

I feel like it would be beneficial to hammer out the details of our border tensions prior to the signing of any NAP.

I do not know the lay of your land, but it sounds as if your peninsula and my peninsula converge in a very awkward and restricted location. Is it true that your access to the "centre" is only through that narrow mountain passage by the jungle horses? It seems unreasonable by the mapmaker that my natural settling direction and a single well-placed city could completely cut you off. And if that is the case, I do not understand why you have not attempted to settle closer to the middle or negotiate with me at an earlier date.

Your proposed compromise appears highly unfavourable in my direction, as you are giving me claim to lands that I have already settled, and opening up a vast amount of land which you have yet to claim. In addition, I currently have no guarantee that you may not be aggressive in the future, at which letting you settle the disputed location would extremely favourable in your direction.

It is for this reason that I find it difficult to produce a counter proposal. Perhaps you have some other suggestions?

- Kodii

Hello Kodii,

I really wish I was trying it on with you, but my only way round the mountain pass you see to the NW of the horses is through our current land we would both like to settle. With regards to not settling earlier, I think I have some answers.

1. I was concious of it maybe looking like a pink dot placement.
2. Much of the land is covered in Jungle and working the land around there was difficult as I was producing 0 culture.
3. I had not planned on you settling your third city so far west so early on. That on my half is play.

I am not sure what guarantee I can offer you in terms of safety but I think with you generating culture from your specific traits you should be able to hold my cultural borders back. How about if I agree not to put any culture in there other than to hold the city and its 3 surrounding tiles to the south of the city and keep a right of passage to the north.


You could have a very nice city placement 1 East of the rice. If I settle 1SW of the horses, I think I may take away the furs, and if I do I will gladly gift you that resource for as long as we are not at war (not that I have any intention to go to war). That way we could possibly share the middle ground?
In terms of vulnerability, as you now know I only have one path down, but you could if you chose to later game (which I hope not) is come at me from your southern city (First?), eastern city (proposed) and Hastings

Actually, if we can agree to this settlement, if you feel I am in a great position to attack from there, in our NAP I will allow you twice the warning length over what you would allow me? Lets say 30 turn NAP, auto renewing each turn, with a minimum notice period to cancel of 10 turns for you (i.e. I get to play 10 turns to prepare) where as my minimum notice period would be 20 turns (i.e. you get 20 turns to prepare)

What do you think to this?



BRegards


Pegasus

Hi Pegasus,

At the moment, I have no interest in expanding any further west than the barbarian city which I hope to take. That is why I am solidifying my core, which includes the disputed location. As I already have troops in place to settle, I am making the decision to place my border city at the pre-mentioned location. I hope this does not put too much strain on our previously good relations, but if it does, I fully understand. I just hope that you will understand that this is best for my future planning and homeland security.

Should you still be interested in peaceful cooperation between our two civilizations, I am fully willing to maintain an Open Border relationship with you so that you may traverse my lands freely and settle the fertile centre. Again, I do not plan to settle that area, and am willing to cede the unclaimed land to you (most of which I have yet to even explore). On top of that, should you have any security concern, I am willing to maintain peaceful relations in the form of a detailed NAP similar to that which you have proposed in your last message.

I look forward to your thoughts.

- Kodii

Pegasus,

I have not heard from you this turn; I hope my concern is preemptive. I have offered Open Borders should you be interested in taking up my suggestion to settle the western fertile lands which I can cede to you.

Hope to hear from you soon,

- Kodii

Hello Kodii,

Apologies for not replying sooner, but felt necessary at the time not to respond as I had very mixed emotions. I find diplo hard enough as is, let alone reply on a whim with the speed this game is progressing. I could have landed myself in who knows what trouble. Your immediate settling without delay certainly did annoy me. However, I don't know what annoyed me the most, you settling or me allowing you to do so in the first place. Not only that you go and get the GL (congrats by the way on that coup). Again, i'm glad I didn't play for it but it was a strategy I toyed around with.

I appreciate you want to secure your borders and it is good for your future planning, but I am deeply concerned as to where I appear in this forward planning. Keeping me holed up in the North I will have little room for expansion, and although I appreciate your offer to open borders and settle past Boundary, any settlement past there is subject to your culture and is virtually a sitting duck ready to be taken by you as you choose. As for my main empire, how long would it be before your best hope would be to wipe me out and take the land for yourself?

I see a couple of options I could undertake now:

Settle close to boundary and sure up my borders even more and apply cultural pressure. We find a work around to improve our border tensions that can benefit both of us. Very difficult when you have a creative trait and fully expect boundary to hold its own in a cultural battle.

Attempt to remove boundary and take the massive diplo hit, and be in a non beneficial war to either of us.

I have to say I don't like any of these options very much at all!

How do you propose we can take this forward?


Kind Regards,


Pegasus

Hello Pegasus,

I apologize for appearing insensitive to your playing and diplomatic style. As much as it would have been nicer to pause and discuss things thoroughly, for the sake of the game pace and my own advances, it was only logical to make the decision that I did.

It appears that you are most concerned with my potential threat in the future. I can assure you that I have no intention of becoming aggressive toward you. If you would like something more concrete, I would be more than happy to negotiate an extended NAP, or some other form of pact to promise no aggression. I mean that sincerely, so that both of our civilizations can advance and not be held back by petty war.

As for the lands west of Boundary, I can tell you that there is plenty of available land, especially in the fertile centre (dubbed by Sylon as "Wonderland") that would be unthreatened by my cultural borders. I do not know how well you know the lay of the land, but my cities hug the southern shore, leaving plenty of space above for your expansion.

I agree that the two options that you have outlined are not compelling in any matter. Both would only cripple yourself. I do believe that you have a much better alternative, as I have previously proposed. If you are unsure about exactly what I am proposing, feel free to shoot any questions my way and I will answer them for you. The reason why I am pushing so strongly for peace is because for either of us to remain competitive in this game, we need to be cooperative in the early game rather than at each other's throats. I know that my settlement was not much of a statement towards cooperation, but I would argue that the two of us had equal claim to the location.

Looking forward to hear back from you.

- Kodii

[Kodii]

Pegasus declared war and razed Boundary. I would have secured the location had I planned my defences better. Here is our current communication:

Hello Kodii,

The turn just played could be my defining moment of my game. For better or worse I do not know.

After some serious deliberation (and I really do mean serious - I can't believe how many hours I have distracted myself from work thinking about this turn!), it is with regret that I have to inform you that I felt Boundary was at this moment in the game a step to far in my direction. Like I mentioned in my previous email it was not an avenue I wanted to persue but felt my best opportunity to do something about it was now rather than later when you could pack it full of defensive units (such as Main - just 1 turn away) and just culture your way into my lands and inflict a slow painful game for me. I may find that you just come along and wipe me out now, but at least if that does happen it will be quicker on me than being choked up in my little space on the map.

I really need to have a rant in my thread at some point too, if the map really does limit my progress of expansion compared to others. 1 less mountain to pass through and we wouldn't be where we are now as I could see possible safe expansion through that pass. I know you kept offering me the space to the North - but in reality as wonderful that land is in parts it was a defensive nightmare waiting to happen without something to connect to south of the mountain pass.


I can't imagine you have a nice thing to say or think about me at this point, but I still think we can work through this in some way, should you want to. We should have had our borders conversation way back so it didn't come to this and for that I apologise. I am still open to sharing the land around Boundary or we could just both battle it out for prime position?

I have offered you a cease fire in game should you wish to accept. These games can make emotions run high and you probably want to tell me where to shove that offer, but please try and consider it for what it really is.


Kind regards


Pegasus

Pegasus,

I am unpleased with your actions.

Is it understandable? Completely.

Will it be a detriment to our relationship? Yes.

I appreciate your offer of a cease fire, but it would be illogical for me to simply let you walk away, considering your aggression.

I will be settling the disputed area again, but once again we can bring this up for discussion. Since you have outright refused my attempt at a reconciliation, obviously settling my city in the same location would not do either of us any favour. Similarly, should you settle there (which I will not allow you to do), then I will be forced to be the aggressor.

I plan to settle 1SW of where Boundary was originally. This is the only compromise I can make for the sake of my own homeland security. I recommend that you quickly settle a border city somewhere north of there (on the horses etc) if you have any concerns about my cultural pressure. Otherwise, you can only blame yourself (other than the mapmaker) for being cut off from the centre.

- Kodii

[Kodii]

If anyone is still following:

Sylon, Ruff and I are in discussions to organize a dogpile on mackoti.

[Ioan76]

If anyone is still following:

Sylon, Ruff and I are in discussions to organize a dogpile on mackoti.

He he ... this will be a very interesting game ( at least to watch&lurk ) !