[SPOILERS] PB1- Mardoc buys a can of paint for Thoth and Ellimist

[Mardoc]

Been thinking about this some more, and came to a few conclusions.

First: we don't actually want a Financial civ, not anymore. We already want the Clan to run 0% science and feed gold to the others. We try to do that with a second civ, and we'll end up with gold out our ears, but no beakers. Especially if we're also building Kilmorph temples everywhere. The only way I see to get around that is to unbalance the settlements, so the Philo civ has most of our land, but then we pay too much maintenance, and in any case are applying Fin to not much commerce.

That probably means no Dwarven workers after all. But that doesn't bother me as much as I'd thought, because +25% workrate still only saves worker turns on things that are normally 5 turns or more, which is pretty much just forests and workshops. It might matter more on Normal speed.
Third: there is another way around the worker efficiency question; take a civ that gets hammer bonuses, and just build more workers! I'm tempted to grab one of Elves or Calabim as our third civ, therefore, not intending to do anything with Vamps per se, just have the Governor's Manors.

I think on balance Amurites should probably be our next pick, with Dain. Presuming we have the option, of course. Third pick is looking to be something generic that's a team player - a hammer civ like just described, or another Phi civ (maybe Einion or Sandalphon), or maybe an Industrious civ, or heck, maybe just Perpentach.

[Thoth]

Glad we got the Clan.

Not sure about Beeri as first pick though. Ind means faster built WGs and they are pretty cheap in the mod. Expect to see some sort of run at Dwarven Druids here I suspect.

Next picks:

We currently have no starting tech and I'd *really* like to start with Farming/Ancient Chants if possible.

OTOH, a combination of Dain and Einion (now with Charismatic for some Reliquary abuse if barbs are heavy) would give us a very solid tech pace once we get past the early game (pretty much have to tech to Myst first here if our start terrain makes it viable). We'll be well behind in the early techs (1 tech vs up to 3) but could play catch up via Philo ECs and a couple of earlyish Academies.

That could also work into an early Pagan Temple/priest spec for Jonas for a Shrine if we can bag RoK.

Problem here is we put ourselves behind on the food/growth curve vs the Teams that grab Agriculture as one of their Civ techs. We'll all finish first farms around the same time (assuming everyone goes worker first) but Calendar will only be around a 12 t tech (Huge, Immortal) so that first farm becomes an Agrarian Farm.....

Definitely agree we should skip Fin. The Clan don't have any special bonus as our Banker, but having them as our Banker avoids some penalties.

I'd really like Philo, and Org is always nice. Decius of the Calbim next? if he's available? Solid civ, starts with Ag has Org for low maint/Lighthouses/Command Posts (mainly useful for non Vampire units)

[Ellimist]

So right now it looks like:

1- Luichirp
2- Clan of Embers
3- Kurioates
4- Khazad
4- Hippus
3- ???
2- us again

What about Calabim or Balseraphs next? Both of those would give us agriculture to start with.

(Can vampires feast in an ally's cities? Can freak shows be placed in ally cities?)

[Thoth]

So right now it looks like:

1- Luichirp
2- Clan of Embers
3- Kurioates
4- Khazad
4- Hippus
3- ???
2- us again

What about Calabim or Balseraphs next? Both of those would give us agriculture to start with.

If the Calabim are still available, let's grab them for sure. It's actually Exploration as the starting tech, but I think they're worth it.

With the Orcs as our Banker, Flauros is unappealing. Alexis (Phi, Agg) is ok but part of the strength of Philo is the cheap Elder Councils and the possibility of an early Academy and Calabim can't build Elder Councils.

Decius (Org, Raider) I actually like. Cheap civics, Governor's Mannors, Command Posts, Raiders. Makes for a decent econ leader with excellent war potential.

If the Calabim get picked next, I like Balseraphs.

Farming starting tech, Freak Shows, Puppets, Mimics.

I like Perpy (Keelyn is probably stronger, but Perpy is more fun. :hat: ). If we do take Perpy, I vote we swap civs every time he gets a trait change after turn 50. :hat:


Other options to consider:

Varn (Cre/Adptive/Spi) Malakim, Ancient Chants.
Falamar (Expansive/Adaptive/Charismatic), Seafaring and Exploration.
Illians (Arcane, Cha) Ancient Chants, Ice mana

We can pick up Agriculture with our third pick : Faeyl Vicbewbs (Arcane, Raiders, Elf stuff, Sinister, great Hero, nice bewbs, unlikely to get picked.




If we take Balseraphs as our #2, Einion Logos (Philo, Cha, Ancient Chants) is interesting. With an early Reliquary we can generate an absurdly early Great Prophet to bulb RoK (and a bulb is about the only way we're going to land that religion I suspect). Also, Reliquary + Cha + Conquest/Apprenticeship + barbs = very hammer effective xp farming. If our 5xp warrior wins, it gains exp. If it loses, another unit gains 3 xp (enough for level 4 if it lands on a 5xp unit).

Note that Sanctuary only affects Elohim lands and I haven't tested if Team units are banned from Elohim lands.

(Can vampires feast in an ally's cities? Can freak shows be placed in ally cities?)

I think so, but needs testing.

Also to be tested: Can Vampires gift Vampirism to level 6 Team units? (like, say Rantine )

[Mardoc]

I'm...a bit confused. What happened to the Amurites in your priority lists? I haven't seen anything out of the other teams that rules them out. Firebows could be an excellent defense against Trebs/Warcry, if need be.

That said, I'm mostly in agreement on Decius of the Calabim, since he can be flexible and support just about anything except an early Mysticism. Or be the warmonger himself. I agree that of the traits available still and given the Clan, Org is the most important for the vamps, to get Governor's Manors up super-quick, especially in a teamer.

I'm pretty sure you can gift Vampirism, but if you're not Calabim yourself, all you get is the +10% strength and healing bonus. Feast is Calabim-only.

I'm still tempted by Dain, though! Unless your thinking is that he's likely to still be available later? I'll admit, he doesn't go that well with the Kurios, and probably not that well with Tasunke either, but I could see pairing him with the Luchiurp. And, well, I wouldn't have picked Hippus/Khazad anyway in a free-for-all, so maybe their thinking is orthogonal to mine.

And I really don't see the value in Faeryl, unless a lot else is already chosen. Mostly - I don't wanna go Way of the Forests if I can help it! Plus, assuming Decius, we have two very production heavy civs, with no focus on beakers to make up for it. I think we need Philo more than we need Agriculture!

[Mardoc]

Anyway, civs left:

Amurites
Balseraphs
Bannor
Calabim
Elohim
Illians
Lanun
Ljosalfar
Sidar
Svartalfar

We pick one, then three are picked, then we get our last pick. So if we can narrow it down to 1, plus four that can get along with them+Clan, we're golden. Don't have to keep things quite so open as before.

Well, the first thing that I see is if we want an Arcane path, we can guarantee a pretty good civ for it. Amurites, Illians, Elves (Faeryl or Thessa), Balseraphs, all are good arcanists. It's a hard choice, though, if we don't get Amurites, because we have to build an arcane path that can still survive 14 turns of nothing. And more than that - Kyan et al haven't picked, but neither Kurio/Malakim nor Khazad/Hippus really works that well with an arcane focus. They want horses, and religions, and chariots/trebs, and really there's not a lot of room there for mages.

Second thing: we could actually do pretty well with a mundane focus, to continue taking advantage of EitB-cheap stuff. Sidar/Svarts for a recon focus, or Bannor/Calabim/Clan for melee/metal, or Ljo/Amurites for bows or something like that. Main downside: I get itchy plotting war without collateral. No matter how cheap your units are, they're not cheaper than summons, and a half-health champion still loses to a healthy axe. Etc.

I guess, all things considered, I want to take Calabim now, then in round three, take the best arcane civ that we can. Which would be something like Amurites > Illians > Balseraphs > Elves. Why those? Well, amurites are obvious. But also because this is the order that is best suited to survive early war, if we're forced to that. Firebows/PoW both could handle warcry, I think, if we move along swiftly.

But I'm still not convinced we don't want Dain now, and the best support civ left in round three. We can live without Governor's Manors.

Technically still here, but I don't want them:
Sheaim - normally pretty bad, now they don't even get AC boosts?
Doviello - no starting tech, only decent trait is Expansive which we already have
Grigori - we have a Spiritual leader. Do we really want a civ that gets zero benefit from religious techs? At least Illians get Temples of the Hand and Priests of Winter. Plus...Always War does not equal XP-shortage . So Adventurers are nerfed.

[Thoth]

+1 vote for Decius of the Calabim this round.

[Ellimist]

While I have no strong objections to the Calabim, I think the Balseraphs are going to be much stronger economically. (Especially if they can export freak shows, with lots of slaves available in eitb.) The Balseraphs have very flexible tech requirements, a strong military, and nothing can really compare to puppetry for magi.

They get the agriculture start we wanted, plus a very strong worldspell and the option of two very strong leaders. Plus they can build elder councils and Loki is useful early.

Grigori - we have a Spiritual leader. Do we really want a civ that gets zero benefit from religious techs?

I would think that Cassiel and Jonas would synergize pretty well, actually. Having a teammate available to settle temples would erase one of the big drawbacks of the Grigori. They're still not that appealing for round two, but if we can get an adaptive leader in round three...

[Mardoc]

Tested, Balseraphs cannot export freak shows, neither with Freaks or with Slaves. In my test, I did verify that I could create freak shows at home, so it's not that.

That said, I do agree that Balseraphs will be much better for tech. Potential of an awful lot of happy cap boosts, plus Revelry, and no, Agri doesn't hurt either . I guess the main question is, do we think we'll be more tech limited, or production limited?

Also, do you prefer Perpentach or Keelyn? I think personally I prefer Perpentach, honestly - I think the million summon strategy has been at least partially nerfed, plus it isn't econ. Having three traits ought to help make up for their unpredictability.

I haven't played a Balseraph game, so I might miss a few of their tricks, but I do like the idea of playing them.

[Mardoc]

I would think that Cassiel and Jonas would synergize pretty well, actually. Having a teammate available to settle temples would erase one of the big drawbacks of the Grigori. They're still not that appealing for round two, but if we can get an adaptive leader in round three...

Well, there's temples, but Cassiel will have trouble getting nearly as much benefit from them, since they aren't recruiting buildings for him, nor will they give as much happiness when he can't adopt a state religion.

But it's tech that worries me more, honestly. We know tech costs will be high - and for Grigori to get their main benefit, they'll need a totally non-religious set of techs. Sure, they could do that in addition to what we do elsewhere - but then we're spreading out a lot, instead of beelining. I don't want adventurer swords to fight someone else's normal chariots, I want to keep up in tier, and that means tech paths that work together.

Besides - the other issue with Grigori is that basically all they have going for them is the leader and a few Adventurers. Luonnatar are at the end of the tech tree, Medics are at a tech that's almost never taken, and other than that, they might as well have nothing. I don't think Cassiel's a strong enough leader to make up for that, even if we settle temples for him.