[SPOILERS]The 3 Muscateers playing Ragnar of Rome!

[Catwalk]

I do like the idea of settling on Iron. Problem is, planning on that is quite a gamble until we know where it's at. I'm not really interested in rushing, even if succesful I think that would put us behind. Main benefits are elimination of a rival and more territory to expand into, but those benefits are shared with our other rivals. I would much rather use Praetorian threats to dictate terms to our early neighbours and force them to build up defense. Given that we specifically chose the AGG/Rome combo, I think we're sending a strong signal that we will be playing aggressively. If we can get our neighbours into a defensive mindset without really committing all that much to military ourselves, I think we stand to benefit more than by rushing. That said, I'm not opposed to an early military campaign once we have built up our economy and our rivals have built some stuff for us to take. Ideally, we'll be able to capture a wonder or two that way.

I think our tech path should be AG => AH => BW => Wheel => Pottery. We won't need to start planting cottages sooner than this (growth/production before commerce) and granaries are less fun when you can't whip or chop them.

[slowcheetah]

But... but... blood!#*(%)£$?

I like the proposed techpath though. I still think the fish is a lie.

[Catwalk]

The fish... is a lie? If you can come up with a good argument for how a rush can help us a win, I'm definitely all ears. If it's just about stomping and having fun, not so much. Stealing workers could be fun, for example. But that's done better with chariots (earlier and 2 moves), we don't really have any advantage there. If anything, we should be on the lookout for Isabella of Egypt doing that to us. How would you feel about adding a scouting workboat to our exploratory forces fairly soon, after sending off 2 warriors to explore inland? We can cash it in later when we have some seafood to settle, and we can potentially get a broader impression of the map sooner than landlubber rivals.

[slowcheetah]

Well it depends on the map, but theoretically I'd imagine you can use Praets to attack someone and then hold onto the lions share of their land. However, you are probably right that being a big bully will work out better than complete elimination. Having said that if we get an oppurtunity for an early take out of the byzantines I think we should take it.

The fish is a lie, in that BW, pottery etc are more important than the fish at the beginning.

The fish is also a clam

[Catwalk]

I think the clam is important in that it gives us a project to grow on. With 3 good early tiles, growing to size 3 should be a priority IMO. We can grow 1 pop on a warrior and 1 pop on a boat.

[Catwalk]

Going to attempt a bit of enemy analysis, both in terms of what they can do with their leader and civ and what their plans might be.

1. superjm - Willem van Oranje (1) of China (2)
Leader: Financial/Creative
Unique Unit: Cho-Ko-Nu (Crossbowman: +1 first strike, 60% collateral damage)
Unique Building: Pavillion (Theatre: +25% culture)
Starting techs: Agriculture + Mining

Very conventional and strong picks. Leader allows for a strong economy and he has good starting techs. Pavilion looks like a dud to me, except for maybe cultural victory. Will Pavilions affect culture bombs? Cho-Ko-Nus look strong to me, but I have little experience with collateral damage. I'm guessing he'll start out as a builder, planning on making a nice land grab and supplement resources with a ton of cottages.

2. waterbat - Louis XIV (2) of India (1) - UP NOW
Leader: Creative/Industrious
Unique Unit: Fast Worker (Worker: +1 move)
Unique Building: Mausoleum (Jail: +2 happy)
Starting techs: Mining + Mysticism

waterbat has excellent wonder hogging capabilities. I think PHI might back that plan up a little better than CRE (EDIT: Oops, there is no PHI/IND leader!), but still a strong choice. If he's our neighbour, we'll want to apply a lot of pressure on him to keep him from getting a little too wonder happy. Alternately, we can try to make him believe he has a safe border with us and then plan on stealing a number of wonders when the time is right.

3. Archduke - Survayarman II (1) of Byzantium (2)
Leader: Creative/Expansive
Unique Unit: Cataphract (Knight: +2 strength, not immune to first strike)
Unique Building: Hippodrome (Theatre: +1 happy, no artist slots, benefits from Horses instead of Dye, twice as much happy from the culture slider)
Starting techs: The Wheel + Mysticism

We do NOT want to fight super knights. I agree with the notion that we might consider a large campaign against him pre-guilds. Guessing that he'll plan his game around Cataphracts.

4. Azza - Isabella (2) of Egypt (1)
Leader: Expansive/Spiritual
Unique Unit: War Chariot (Chariot: +1 strength)
Unique Building: Obelisk (Monument: 2 priest slots)
Starting techs: Agriculture + Wheel

Azza is set up to start out very fast. Spiritual saves him a turn on Slavery, and Expansive lets him develop his cities in a hurry. Guessing he will at least go raid a neighbour early on.

5. Xenon - Shaka (1) of Ottomans (2)
Leader: Aggressive/Expansive
Unique Unit: Janissary (Musketman: +25% vs mounted/archery/melee)
Unique Building: Hammam (Aqueduct: +2 happy)
Starting techs: Agriculture + Wheel

Mirror version of us, except his military power peaks a bit later. Aggresive Janissaries will be very powerful against enemies without Gunpowder, but without that he has little to offer. Guessing that he will beeline for Gunpowder and try to take someone out with Janissaries.

6. Catwalk - Ragnar of Rome
Leader: Aggressive/Financial
Unique Unit: Praetorian (Swordsman: +3 hammers, +2 strength, no bonus against cities)
Unique Building: Forum (Market: +25% great person points)
Starting techs: Fishing + Mining

And us. I'm quite happy with our combo, and I think we will be able to take proper advantage of it. I wonder if we should have gone with Shaka for a faster start, or Ottomans for a later military peak. Given how many rivals there are, I felt more comfortable with having a long-term economic advantage.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Hmm, things moved quickly here and I missed the setup. That's OK. But we left HC and Pacal on the board? (I haven't read the setup thread -- maybe they're banned??). Anyway I'm just here to collect my paycheck anyway. Without Mao I'm not sure what to do!

As far as Ragnar goes, he was more of a butcher than dictator, right? I guess it doesn't have to play too differently than Mao . I'll take a look at the save when I can and post some thoughts but probably not today, it'll be a 12 to 14 hour work day today/tonight if it goes like my last few Thursdays. But I can work with AGG.

[Catwalk]

I've been tinkering some more:

Plan A
t5 Work boat (with a 1/2 tile)
t12 Worker
t17 Warrior
t21 Worker
OR
t23 Settler

t21 stats:
size 3, 0 food
47 hammers on current project, 2 hammers on warrior or barracks
243 gold accumulated

Plan B
t8 Worker
t16 Work Boat
t19 Worker
OR
t21 Settler

t21 stats:
size 3, 4 food
67 hammers on current project
215 gold accumulated
4 free worker turns

Plan C (same as B but 3t on clam first instead of forest)

t21 stats:
size 3, 5 food
56 hammers on current project
237 gold
3 free worker turns

Workboat first looks like a weak option when compared with both plans B and C. I will continue exploring worker first openings. B gives 11 hammers and a worker turn at a cost of 22 commerce. That means getting the first settler (or second worker) out one turn sooner.


Also, the opening screenshot from earlier is accurate. Settling only gives a tiny bit more visibility, nothing unexpected. I suggest moving NW-NW-SW to get visibility on the north coast and then climb the plains hill to the WNW.

[Catwalk]

I'm definitely going worker first, so the questions are
1) whether to swap 3 hammers for 9 commerce during the first 3t
2) which direction to go with our warrior

In other news, I'm quite certain Azza is working a 1/2 forest and going warrior or settler first. His MFG is 4, so he can't be building a worker. He can't be building a workboat since he doesn't have Fishing. And he can't be building Stonehenge as he doesn't have Mysticism. That leaves warrior, settler and barracks. Whichever it is, I'm pretty sure that's good news for us. He's researching a tech with a prerequisite, since he starts with Agriculture and The Wheel it has to be Animal Husbandry.

[Sian]

the hammer bonuses from Expansive and Imperialistic doesn't show on demographics ...