[SPOILERS] The Kaiser Strikes back! A Bigger Germany is better

[Bigger]

What's going on? We don't want to fall too far behind and be odd man out on the diplo side. Need me to craft some missives?

you could try and establish contact with tasunke, who I have not heard from yet.

Or mattimeo.


but I'll be up late tonight and sending out emails, hopefully chatting with scooter soon, maybe rowain and tasunke soon too.

I have gotten an email from twinkletoes that I'll post along with my response tonight.

[Bigger]

my response to scooter, vetted by waterbat:
Hi Scooter! Sorry for being slow to respond, I really had a busy day yesterday and I'm falling behind =). I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, though. With the late moves deadline (tuesday) I have prioritized a few other things in my life the last day.
Anyway I'm available on gchat now, and would love to talk with you when it is convenient for you. I'll be up tonight and trying to figure things out this weekend .

So you, Rowain and twinkletoes are the diplomacy vets here, eh? I like the idea of a Franco-German friendship. I also think its important for us to establish a trust for the first season or too. What are you thoughts on, perhaps, keeping burgandy de-militarized? this territory seems to be the territory which causes the most contention between Germany and France, leaving it clean would remove temptation for both of us and make it easier for us to work togethor against England, if we decide to do so.


I would love to chat w/ you soon. I'll be near my comp the rest of tonight and probably most of tomorrow. If I don't respond right away I will soon. What time zone are you in, btw?

[Bigger]

interesting discussion with scooter (at the end we continued to talk about off-topic stuff)
scooter: hey Bigger - got a few minutes?
Sent at 9:17 PM on Friday
me: I'm here sorry
so you were England last game?
Sent at 9:22 PM on Friday
scooter: ok now I'm back hah.
yep, I was
was a fun game. 3v1'd france which went great but then germany stabbed me pretty good and I was out
me: ah yes.. uber was germany that game
I read his thread but haven't read yours yet
scooter: yeah. honestly I asked for it - I made it too tempting
me: ah
scooter: anyways, for starters, I'm good with a DMZ on Burgundy
me: good, good
scooter: at bare minimum that should be a nice start
but yeah, I think tangling on the first turn is crazy
me: sure, we both have easy independent cores to grab and need to determine England's intentions
what do you think of Tasunke?
scooter: I think he's a bit crazy and a major wildcard
hah
has he talked to you at all yet?
me: funny, thats my impression of him too.. I take it you read ww11 and ww12? haha.. I assume he plays civ FFH too, but I don't know FFH well, don't really read those
scooter: I also go ta strong sense that he's pretty green. to the point where it makes you wonder if he's messing with us.
me: no, I haven't heard from him yet
scooter: yeah, I played in his first WW game - 11 i think. didn't read 12, but I imagine more of the same
yeah, I haven't either. he seems to be really hit and miss lately with activity
me: well he got pressured into role claiming day 1, just like ww11
lol
scooter: haha thats great
yeah... he tends to get over-excited about things
basically, when I look for an ally, I'd prefer someone reliable. he seems .... a bit unpredictable. i honestly have 0 ideas onwhat he'll do
Sent at 9:31 PM on Friday
me: well honestly.. I need to talk to him before I make a hard decision, but I tend to agree with everything you just said.. unpredictability is dangerous.. wild unpredictability also means he might do things not even in his own self interest, which could be super dangerous
scooter: right. i don't want him to do something crazy if my own well-being depends on him haha
Sent at 9:33 PM on Friday
me: so have you played much diplomacy, other than the ww game last year?
err
scooter: well, I used to play some with some friends back in high school, but that was... probably 7-8 years ago now. other than that, only diplomacy i've ever played is the RB games here
me: rb game i mean
scooter: so Dip1 and the gunboat game
me: ah
scooter: basically, I understand the game pretty well, but i'm not really all that experienced
me: I played once, about 12 years ago in College, as Russia
scooter: I don't even think i've played france before
russia's interesting for your first ever game hah
me: ok, we're about on the same page then.. I'll be happy if the game just finishes with a winner rather than collapsing to boredom like the last 2 games apparently did
scooter: yeah. dip1 did get played out to the end (3-way draw), but it dragged a bit. dip2 just collapsed
me: dip 1 was the greens game right?
I read twinkletoes thread, seems like he was convinced he could get a 2 way draw w/ russia, but the game ended
scooter: nah dip2 was the greens
me: oh
right
scooter: yeah, TT did pretty well in that game as italy
orchestrated a huge carving up of austria
then went at germany IIRC
me: yes well, this germany will be more careful of him
scooter: I bet hah
I thiink people underestimated him there. he hasn't done great in civ games, but diplomacy is the kidn of game that's made for him. he's a fairly good diplomat.
me: i think so too
scooter: ever considered pulling some kind of sealion opening on tasunke?
that would take care of him pretty quickly if we did it right haha
me: well, sure
I don't think its practical in 1901, but maybe in later years?
a lot will depend on his control of the seas.. and France is a better position to deny him that, isn't he?
she/it
scooter: yeah. well a sealion involves france getting into english channel and supporting germany into north sea which is GG for england
here's a nice reference for it:
http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/S1997M/Birsan/Sealion.html
Sent at 9:42 PM on Friday
me: hmm, another article I need to read tonight
scooter: it's interesting. it more or less results in england dead by 1902 or 1903... depending on england reactoins and all that
me: yes.. well England doesn't exactly have any help if we both turn on it.. even if it had afriendly Russia there isn't much Russia could do
well first impressions, I like the idea
scooter: right. basically, if you like the idea of quickly KO'ing england and then dividing up the rest of the world, this is the fastest way to do that - doing it before england has a bunch of fleets
me: thank God for Molach's map in the game state thread.. every time I consider my moves I have to refer back to it... do not have the territory names down yet
scooter: yeah, it takes awhile. the balkan ones I can never keep straight
me: how would you get in the channel to support me though? wouldnt he just bounce you?
scooter: depends - he may or may not. if he's not interested in making me upset, he may order into nwg and nth in which case i'm into ENG
in Dip2 I actually think france tried that and they bounced. england still died pretty quickly though
me: ok.. if that happens, can he support his Nth fleet with NWG fleet, keeping us from pushing him out? (assuming he passed on taking the core in norway)
scooter: it's not really a guaranteed success, though if I were to get into ENG in the spring that'd be really bad fo rhim
me: true
scooter: he could, but in that case he'd get 0 builds
me: true, and we'd both pick up 2
scooter: basically in the first year, he has: 1) protect ENG 2) protect Nth 3) capture norway... pick 2
haha
and yeah, we'll both get 2 builds barring something unusual happen
so if I bounce in the spring, I'd just empty brest in the fall and build another fleet there
Sent at 9:50 PM on Friday
me: ok.. I suppose he'll try to get me to support him into belgium.. but that would mean either passing on holland or keeping my fleet in denmark, so I'm not sure he'd buy it even I did promise to do so
anyway I'll run this by waterbat, a promise this early with 3 days until orders due would be insincere, but I really like that plan
scooter: oh yeah - definitely chat with him. not much of a rush - 3 days still to go
but anyways, if you like the idea of taking out england so we don't have to worry about tasunke doing something crazy - I think the quicker the better
me: yes
scooter: because if russia does well, you could be threatened by them pretty quickly
and if italy/austria get along, I could possibly have an italy problem
me: yeah im aware of that <g>
true
scooter: yep. yeah, so if people start to get the drift that an FG is happening, could get some propping up of england so that'd be nice to avoid
me: well not sure how theyu could do that, but I guess they could try and attack on or both of us to avoid us getting to big
still FG alliance isn't as threatening to the world as some other alliances (say RT).. or am I wrong?
scooter: well by that I mean - if a fight on england drags for a few years, russia would be very motivated to slow us down if they had the resources to do so. same with italy
so if we did it quickly enough, nothing they could do
me: ok, good point
scooter: and yes I agree
RT is scarier to everyone else
but seeing f/g get big quickly if the east stalemates can make those guys nervous
me: ok I see your point
scooter: any other thoughts, questions, concerns, etc?
any contact from italy? really hoping they stick to the east
me: I got an email from him after yours, but havent had the chance to respond to it
I personally would love it if Itally took Tunis and nothing else in 1901, but I'm not sure twinkletoes will be that conservative
havbe you talked to him?
scooter: yeah... TT played diplo as italy really aggressively in dip2, and I expect him to do the same as it worked last time
a little bit - just intro emails but I think he's travelling now. I tried to make a deal to DMZ piedmont this year
me: what did he say?
scooter: italy going into piedmont is a bit weird for year 1, but it's not unheard of
hasn't responded yet
me: well even if he does that
you'll have the army in SPA, you could always move back to mar, bounce, and stay in SPA (getting the extra core).. no way for him to get support to that attack, right? army in tus or fleet in tys doesn't help
only way is if I had moved A to bur and support him, which would be dumb as I would have no way to pick up 2 cores
scooter: right it's safe, but an italian unit in piedmont makes it a guessing game for me. if I try to bounce and he doesn't move in, i've lost a build
me: oh true
scooter: so that's the awkward situation.
me: I guess an attack on Austria is safer in 1901
scooter: or if I bet on him not bouncing and he moves in, not so great either
definitely agree. which is why i'd like to try to figure out how italy/austria relations are going
i'm guessing austria should be pretty friendly to you
no reason for you guys to fight barring a really weird alliance
me: yeah
scooter: talked to tatan much? I just exchanged pleasantries but nothing else as we don't have tons to talk about
me: we had a small chat, just to make sure we were on same page and werent going to attack each other (dont think either of us knows the other well, so that was necessary)
scooter: yeah, makes sense
me: I trust him as much as you can in this stage of the game
scooter: all I know of Tatan is mattimeo told me Tatan was pretty concerned about an RT which makes sense... so Tatan was trying to dissuade that.
me: well I think we all should be concerned about a RT, don't you?
lol
scooter: which is good. last I want is rowain dominating the east with ease
me: yes
scooter: definitely haha
though it usually doesnt work great for turkey and mattimeo definitely seemed to get that
he seems pretty sharp
me: yes
did you catch my comment about him in the ww game? he seemed to be role-playing Aristotle
lol, I thought it was clever
scooter: oh yeah hah
me: he certainly understands the meta aspects of game.. I expect him to have a good grasp on game theory.. no idea how that will translate into actual diplomacy, though
scooter: yeah. from the way he talked, he sounds like he really understands the metagame but hasnt really played much vs humans
me: lol... have you ever played the computer game diplomacy? it was released sometiem around 2002
as you might expect, the AI is terrible, ridiculously easy
scooter: hah yeah I played it. was kidna fun but AI was realllly bad
yeah
hah
I mostly used it to learn how the game worked

[Bigger]

so, even tho tackling France would be more convenient, I do echo his concerns exactly about Tasunke. regardless, the spring 1901 moves for sealion are identical to the jutland gambit I was planning, so I won't have to decide really until fall 1901. It will depend on my talks with england, and also how well Russia is doing.

[Bigger]

following email sent to tasunke

Hi Tasunke! We should probably have a chat soon to discuss a few things. I know you were away for family things a lot lately, are you available for discussion any time soon?

I do think think an Anglo-German friendship would be beneficial to us both. I am still talking to everyone, but I am instictively concerned about Scooter and Rowain for their experience in the game. Do you think it would be beneficial for the less experience players like us to band togethor? Something to consider.

Anyway we don't need to decide that right away, but I would like to open discussions soon. What time zone are you in? I invited you to gmail chat and would love to set up a discussion soon.

[Bigger]

I have a rules question. Denmark is confusing to me. I read this in an article about germany:

The first decision is whether or not to order F(Kie)-Den. Certainly the move to Denmark is very popular (71.8%) and has the advantage that you can deny Russia Sweden in A01, which is usually what happens.

how exactly can I bounce Russia in Sweden from Denmark? don't I have to go den>ska or den>bal first, or is den>swe considered moving along the coast and allowed in 1 turn phase?

[Mardoc]

Denmark is considered to be adjacent to Sweden, with a canal/strait connecting between it and Skaggerak/Baltic. Analogous to Constantiople, which is adjacent to mainland turkey and Bulgaria, with a strait connecting the Black Sea to the Aegean.

If you look at the map posted, where the dot is, is still part of Denmark, as is the water shown in between the pieces of Denmark.

So, yes, you could consider it moving along the coast. If you had an army in Denmark, it could march to Sweden.

Edit: Page 5 here goes into detail on the tricky parts of the map.

[Bigger]

thanks Mardoc!

[Bigger]

extended convo with mattimeo. No real surprises, he just backed up what Tatan and scooter told me of him:

me: hey, you around for chat?
was just about to compose an email for you
3:13 PM rb.bigger: yes
i was hoping to hear from you soon.. sorry i've been busy w/ the ww game and rl stuff, wasn't planning to get around to diplomacy till this weekend
but i can chat now, yes
3:14 PM me: awesome
rb.bigger: so was Turkey your first choice?
me: it was, actually
rb.bigger: just curious
me: germany yours?
rb.bigger: cool, looks like everyone got their ffirst choice but me
no, my 4th
lol
me: ah, damn
rb.bigger: or maybe 5th, I dont remember if I put turkey or germany higher
me: so you've been in touch with pretty much everyone then?
3:15 PM rb.bigger: well I got an email from twinkle toes and rowain but haven't talked to either of them.. and I finally sent an email off to tasunke, but havent talked to him either
me: ah, OK
3:16 PM haven't had any contact with Tasunke, was going to send emails to both you and him now
short email exchange with TT, and a chat or two with Rowain, scooter and Tatan
(and by 'short email exchance' I mean one in each direction
3:18 PM rb.bigger: yeah i think he'll be in the game more next week
3:19 PM so what do you think of Rowain? I'll need to chat w/ him soon
me: he's... interesting
rb.bigger: lol
3:20 PM me: lots of understatement about the strength of his position
rb.bigger: yes
me: we were just talking fairly aimlessly, then halfway through he seemed to assume that I'd be part of an alliance with him and possibly italy against Austria
rb.bigger: his opening email to me was pretty much just "i hope we can both grab our natural neutral cores - me sweden and you denmark".. of course he didnt acknowledge that I can keep him out of sweden and he has no power to keep me out of denmark
3:21 PM hmm. are you interested in that?
3:22 PM me: the problem with any RT is that Russia both gets more out of it, and has better stab opportunities
3:23 PM so I'm understandably hesitant about committing to such a course of action
rb.bigger: I agree.. plus you are playing for a draw, Russia has a chance to get a win or draw, you pretty much can only get a draw
me: yeah
though given I'm turkey, I'm pretty much playing for a draw anyway
rb.bigger: I dunno about that
3:24 PM me: very hard to actually reach 18 against co-ordinated opposition as Turkey
rb.bigger: there is a lot of Russian land.. if you take to long taking it I'll join in, but I'm gonna be busy for a few years in the west <g>
me: heh
focusing on scooter, or hoping Tasunke is easy meat?
rb.bigger: I honestly havent decided yet
3:25 PM it doesnt help that Tasunke is awol
me: I'd naturally prefer if both you and Tasunke were friendly enough in Scandinavia to be annoying to Rowain, even if I do end up being allies with him...
3:26 PM rb.bigger: well, I dont like the idea of Russia getting strong. I really can't predict how much help will Tasunke will be until I talk to him
me: yeah :/
3:28 PM rb.bigger: I'll tell you this.. I need to talk to twinkletoes, but I am going to strongly discourage him from moving east like he did in diplo 1. and I'm going to tell Rowain if the army in warsaw moves out of russia soil I will bounce him in sweden
me: yeah, that seems relatively solid
rb.bigger: so obviously i would prefer you ally with Austria, and I'd be willing to help you if you do..
but don't expect any help if you choose to ally with russia
3:29 PM me: Rowain was specifically asking after TT
so it appears he's looking for an RI
which does bode soewhat poorly for me if I help them dismantle Austria...
3:30 PM rb.bigger: yeah
3:31 PM well I like the idea of a GAT counter balance.. neither of you are big threats to me early.. and turkey isn't likely to ever be a threat to germany, so if yall succeed in carving up R and I i might even be willing to help you against Austria down the road.. a few years from now
3:32 PM me: I'm liking the sound of that initial idea
3:33 PM we can sort out the latter when it becomes relevant, though
rb.bigger: of course
3:37 PM me: so, GAT to hold back / push into Russia, and see if we can convince Twinkletoes to not jump on Austria in the mean-time?
rb.bigger: yeah, i would love it if Italy put some pressue on france.. but if chooses just to take the same tunis core and do nothing else thats fine too
have you thought much about your opening moves?
3:38 PM (I sitll find myself having to look at the map when I think about moves, hehe)
me: my fleet has to go to BLA, otherwise I'm just asking Rowain to walk all over me
3:39 PM rb.bigger: yes, agreed, you'll probably bounce if Rowain has any sense
me: and Con -> Bul is pretty much a universal constant in Turkey openings
rb.bigger: sure, its an easy core
me: yeah, we've pretty much established that we're bounding BLA in Spring
3:40 PM rb.bigger: i guess your only options then are smy>con or smy> arm
me: Rowain informed me in no uncertain terms that moving my last army to Arm would be treated as an undying declaration of war
rb.bigger: lol
me: which, really, is a reasonably sensible stance to take
3:41 PM rb.bigger: well, have you and austria talked about how to devide up the balkands/greece?
3:42 PM me: Ser and Bul to obvious owners, Gre (eventually) to me, Rum (eventually) to him, but likely to be differing arrangements of those two in the early years
rb.bigger: if TT moves into ion instead of tys, you can't be certain he'll take tunis instead of a stab at greece.. although tunis would perhaps be more sensible, since if he bounces with you he doesnt gain a core
me: yup
3:43 PM rb.bigger: what do you think of this
I can tell Russia to keep his army in warsaw if he wants sweden, otherwise feigning ignorance of A and T plans and pledging to stay out
3:44 PM then austria does bud> rum and vie> bud, and you move smy > arm
3:46 PM then in the autumn, with out russian pressure (or if he has moved out of Russia he won't get sweden, which he will badly want)... austria can support you into sev from rum, which will take his core and force him to kill off his BLA ship, allowing you to move your ship into the med... he can also move his army from bud to ser, you both pick up 2 cores
thats the only way I can see that turkey will get 2 cores anyway.. and russia is at 4 or 3 cores but doesnt pick up a 5th
3:47 PM me: Mos -> Ukr can cut the rumanian support
or War-> Ukr if he took your warning seriously
rb.bigger: hmm true
3:48 PM me: not going to lie, getting into Rum in Spring given a reasonably strong position for us, but I don't know that we can leverage it fast enough for such blatant aggression
3:49 PM rb.bigger: well worst case you make the move unsupported, he either has to let you take Sev with your army, or stay in sev with his navy and bounce, letting you take the BLA
3:51 PM me: Ukr -> Rum to cut the support, since he'll assume I'd support Rum from Bul, then he can risk bouncing me in BLA to deny both BLA and Sev
if he ignored your warning and moved War-Gal, we're actually in a fairly bad position, I think
3:52 PM rb.bigger: wait, maybe I dont understand the rules properly
me: of course, we deny the Sev build that can play havok with me
rb.bigger: worst case, lets say he moves his armies into GAL and UK
3:53 PM and bounces with you in BAL
then he's 2 vs 2, austria vs russia.. so tatan just has to have the 2 units support each other (he won't be able to support you) and he's safe, right?
3:54 PM me: he's safe in Rum, sure
but we're going to have a hard time pushing forwards
3:55 PM rb.bigger: then russia just has the navy in sevs.. .. I see, if he moves BLA and bounces with you, it stays in sev and bounces your army.. what if you took the gamble he would do that and didnt move your navy into black, letting him tkae BLA but losing SEV to you?
lol
also Russia could take VIE, so it would be hard on Austria.. which is why I'm going to tell Russia not to do that
me: yes, if that happens then it's quite amusing
3:56 PM but that type of faking out screws with my head too much
rb.bigger: haha
well what is your other option, smy> con, then taking bul and greece in the autmn?
me: 'cause if he thinks I'm going to try and be clever and let him into BLA in exchange for taking Sev myself
3:57 PM then he can just hold in Sev and accomplish the same thing...
rb.bigger: yeah I know, he might not go after BLA
yeah
and then you missed your chance to take BLA!! lol
me: smy-> con, and trying to get Bul and Gre in Autumn would be nice
3:58 PM yeah, but it'd be F(Ank)->Con, build F(Ank) and dislodge him from the sea in Spring then
3:59 PM rb.bigger: yeah
4:00 PM well I would think there is no way he could prevent it eventually if you and Austria stay friends.. I'm not going to help him, so the only potential friend is England, and how the heck could England help?
and really, how could I even help him, even if I wanted to?
4:01 PM me: yeah, point
Italy could make a nuisance of himself in our backlines
rb.bigger: yeah
4:02 PM im going to send off an email to italy as soon as we're through talking, hopefully I can get him to chat.. I can somewhat hinder Italy's ability to do that, especially if I'm able to stabilize things in the west, so hopefully I can discourage that
of course if he chooses to go after greece there isn't much I can do :/
4:04 PM me: I'm still thinking I'd prefer to open without such an obvious declaration against Russia, waiting 'til we actually have the forces to be able to push Sev successfully before we try doing it trickily...
4:05 PM rb.bigger: ok
me: maybe, though... it's good to keep my options open
rb.bigger: so are you planning on building a second fleet in con after bouncing for 2 seasons?
4:06 PM me: if that's feasible, yes
though there's a reasonably possibility that he'll need to do somethign else with the Sev fleet in Autums to secure Rum
rb.bigger: I guess if you did that and built an army in smy (assuming 2 builds, which seems likely).. then you could force your way into BLA in the spring, and with that support force your way into sev in the fall)
4:07 PM me: yeah, that's pretty much the basic gist of how I was hoping things would play out
4:08 PM depends on whetehr it looks like I need to defend against Italy in the south for the builds, though
rb.bigger: well even if he does something else with his fleet and lets you in BLA in the fall, you won't be able to take advantage of that until 1902
yeah true
4:09 PM hmm now I wish i was turkey, this sounds fun
haha
me: lol
nah, Turkey is all about small, predictable gains
4:10 PM don't do anything stupid, and it's very hard to actually kill you off
do anything silly and agressive, and there will be someone there to sink the knife in
Germany's fun, so many actual options
4:11 PM rb.bigger: this is true
lots of strategy articles on germany i've noticed
4:12 PM have you played much diplomacy previously?
me: do you Mun-> Tyr, expecting the bounce and helping protect Austria? Mun->Bur, for agression against France? Mun->Ruh, to help someone with Belgium (or take ir yourself)
a little online, against AI

[Bigger]

here is where my sales background helps with diplomacy <g>. By asking mattimeo questions, i keep control of the conversations. I pretty much have an idea about his plans for the next 2 years without even giving him a hint of my actual moves (I did tell him of a convos I plan to have with Russia or Italy, but havent broached where I will actually move, giving me more freedom w/o fear of him feeling that I lied to him).