(November 12th, 2012, 04:20)TheHumanHydra Wrote: Thank you for your post, Catwalk. I think we understand better where each other is coming from now! Sorry about the misunderstanding about Cha; I thought you were trying to make reference to something you thought I had said earlier. Your point is taken about picking India as a learning experience; if I get them, I may need help with the unfamiliar Worker micro, though!
My main point with India is that the FW is a great way to offset less than perfect worker micro. I think India and Inca are different in that sense, with Inca being a good way to enhance a strength and India being a good way to cover a weakness. I think both are a good choice for you, I'm personally enjoying India in PBEM42 because it lets me do capable worker micro without a whole lot of planning. PBEM42 Spoiler:
And combined with my massive culture strategy, it allows me awesome mobility on offenses because I can very easily road very close to many enemies cities. Expecting to have a lot of fun with this later, I'm entirely defensive for now.
Quote:Now, I had thought the d4 roll meant we were picking first, but apparently it means we are playing first and picking last (or rather, back-to-back in the middle).
Usually picking last is not bad at all, but with no restrictions I'd say #1 and #2 are superior positions. The India and Inca players (I agree you're unlikely to get Inca) will both get to pick a good leader, especially if the Inca player is lucky enough to land Pacal.
Quote:Based on our conversations, my first choice should be Pacal (Exp/Fin) of India, followed by either Pacal of Inca or Willem (Cre/Fin) of India. If no one else has picked an Industrious leader by the time we pick, though, can we pick Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) so we're the only ones with the wonder bonus?
I think FIN/IND is a very good option, not least because we don't want the Indian player to land it. I think we can expect FIN/EXP and FIN/CRE to be taken by the other two players, leaving the Indian player with a slightly suboptimal leader if we take FIN/IND. FIN/SPI, FIN/PHI and FIN/ORG are all decent but they're nowhere near as good for snowballing or wonder hogging as the previous three leader combos.
Quote:If all three leaders are taken, I'll pick Darius (Fin/Org). I'm a little more uncertain about civ. Obviously Willem of Inca would be silly. What other civs would you recommend in case both India and Inca are taken? Spain or Britain for their strong endgame unique units? Byzantium for its strong middle-game UU? Just throwing out ideas.
When evaluating your UU, make sure to consider how useful this unit is in the first place. A rifle is already a great unit, so getting a boost for it is awesome. The actual boost is less awesome, but it's still good getting a boost for a good unit. Opposite to that, you have Romans getting an awesome boost on an arguably bad unit. Swordsmen are rarely built, but strength 8 early on is big. I don't think the Conquistador is good for anything, though. By the time you get to them, melee units are no longer common. They're great if someone has a mace army that you can plow through, though. Thinking more about Spain, I actually can talk myself into liking them. While they can reliably be countered by muskets, it's possible that there's a weak/misguided player who relies on a combination of maces, longbows, crossbows and pikes by the time we get to them. IF (and that's a big if) we play a strong game and tech faster than the rest. I also think the citadel is cute, +5 XP for catapults is a massive bonus. Mysticism/Fishing are weak starting techs though, and you have no seafood. I think that's the death blow for Spain here, with seafood and a smaller map (more value from an early religion) I could see them working. Byzantium fail for the same reason, starting techs are weak (Wheel/Mysticism) and that is likely to trouble your opening. I think we need to get an Agriculture civ due to wet grass wheat and river grass sheep being available, those are great tiles that we want to work as soon as possible. I like my musketmen a whole bunch in PBEM37, I could definitely get behind a France pick (Agriculture/Wheel). China is always solid (Agriculture/Mining), so is Egypt and Ottomans. Sumerians are also a safe pick.
Quote:Okay, I think that covers everything. Thank you very much for your support Catwalk, and thank you everyone for participating in the discussion so far (I've never had a post that generated so much discussion before!). Let me know your thoughts on this picking strategy, Catwalk, Lego. Finally, why don't we make it a goal of this game for me to learn how to whip more effectively (besides winning, of course!)?
I think that is a very good objective, regardless of what we end up picking. If Pacal and Willem are taken before us, I think we should consider going all out with Bismarck of Inca. With Mysticism and IND, opponents will be heavily discouraged from going for Oracle. Other priorities: Parthenon, Temple of Artemis, Great Library and Mausoleum of Mausollos. All of these require marble, and the MoM doesn't quite fit the path of the others. Just rambling here, don't take any of this as gospel. Not that I think there was any risk of that
I don't mind picking last, as it also means we get to pick back-to-back, giving us if not the absolutely most powerful civ or leader, the most synergistic combination. Curiously, Serdoa just took Sury, meaning one of Pacal and Willem will be left for us. If I get to pick Inca and Pacal is still on the table, should I pick him, or stick with HC? Pacal could give an explosive opening, but long-term it might be better to pick HC, both for our own benefit (if we end up being the only Ind civ) and for denial, as you've said (then again, maybe it would be important to deny India fast Fast Workers, as well!).
Thank you for your advice regarding unique units. It's interesting, for PBEM45 Sian convinced me the Conquistador was an incredible UU! You're right, though, Agriculture is definitely the top priority. I'll give some more thought to which Agriculture civ I like best (besides Inca). I'm not sure I really like France; I think I'd rather have the Ottomans if I were to pick a civ with a Musket UU.
Bismarck of Inca is an interesting suggestion, but I'm really leery of taking a non-Financial civ. I think I really would rather have Pacal or HC; the only question is which one, if it comes down to a choice. At least I have the consolation of knowing both are excellent; can't really go wrong there!
I would definitely go with Pacal of Inca over Huyana Capac. Exp is usually a better trait than Ind even in a vacuum (remember, many wonders are built by who gets to the tech first, not who is Industrious) and synergizes incredibly well with Inca.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Awesome pick, very lucky for us that Pacal and Inca were both left on the table So yep, granaries and whipping it is! My musings about Huyna and Bismarck were based on Inca or Pacal being taken already. I do think that Huyna of India is a beast, we should watch our for Old Harry.
(November 15th, 2012, 02:58)Catwalk Wrote: Awesome pick, very lucky for us that Pacal and Inca were both left on the table So yep, granaries and whipping it is! My musings about Huyna and Bismarck were based on Inca or Pacal being taken already. I do think that Huyna of India is a beast, we should watch our for Old Harry.
I actually think Pacal of the Inca is stronger, although I also find HC of India to be more fun (at heart, I really do like my shinies).
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
I definitely agree with Pacal of Inca is stronger, we're far beastlier
Azza has picked Willem (CRE/FIN) of Mongolia (Keshik/Ger + Hunting/Wheel) and Serdoa has picked Sury (CRE/EXP) of Byzantium (Cataphract/Hipodrome + Mysticism/Wheel). Seems to me both are going for fun, possibly handicapping themselves a little bit due to their larger experience. We shall punish them!
I suspect that Azza got tempted by the fur tile that he probably also has, I think that's a mistake. A grass hill fur tile without a forest is not very good at all early on, you mainly want that for the happiness and you won't be needing that for a while. Neither one of them have Agriculture or Mining, possibly complicating their starts a little. India is only slightly better off with Mining/Mysticism, allowing them to play a BW opening. If he were to pick Mansa Musa, BW first and whipping a worker can be a strong opening.
Interestingly, 3 out of 4 civs start with Mysticism. I'd say we're going to pass on the race to Oracle and religions, hoping that Harry and Serdoa both go for them (meaning that one will lose out). Harry is almost certain to get Stonehenge, with 2 other CRE players + EXP/Inca in the game. Want to pick a pet wonder to race for? Great Lighthouse is allowed, but it might be very difficult to keep open borders with your rivals after you get it. I know Azza hasn't been pleased with my trade routes in PBEM37, and since I'm even dedlurking here I imagine he'll be a hard sell for open borders. Nothing personal against him mind, just saying that he'll be more alert to this. I think Serdoa will also be cautious. I like picking up junk wonders personally, provided I can get a doubler (Parthenon, Temple of Artemis, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens). They're easy to get, and you have enough time to set up plenty failgold before completing them.
Pyramids is also an option, of course. I'm not super keen on it personally without PHI, I think early super specialists are not all that super because it's difficult to spare the food for them. By the time you're set to run specialists, you have typically landed an assortment of luxuries and are set to grow. Mausoleum would be awesome to land, and follows a profitable tech path (Mathematics for better chopping, Calendar for plantations). Pairing it with a run for GLH is also a good idea, and I think it'd be lucrative here because we have two slow starters (Azza and Serdoa) and one who's locked in for Stonehenge as his early priority (Harry).
So just to summarize again, we've got Mansa Musa of India (Old Harry), Suryavarman of Byzantium (Serdoa), Willem of Mongolia (Azza), and Pacal of Inca (TheHumanHydra). I'm surprised Old Harry missed Huayna Capac.
I'm also surprised we apparently got the best combination, seeing as we picked last. I think it's quite clear from the picks we'll be facing large forking cavalry stacks at some point and need to be prepared.
Can you explain more about the Fur tile? I wouldn't want to be working it right at the start, but slightly later on (say, when we're getting into the more expensive Classical techs), it would appear to be about as good as or better than a pair of scientists, but only tying up one citizen and half-paying for him in food to boot. Hunting need not be an early tech, though.
I agree about skipping the Oracle. I think we'll have to see more of the map before making a decision about the Great Lighthouse, and the strategic situation will dictate whether we can go for the Mausoleum. I cautiously agree about the junk wonders, but I don't want to spam them (I don't know why we would need the Great Wall, for instance. I guess if we really have nothing else to build). We can probably get the Hanging Gardens if we swing by Math early on the way to get the Mausoleum. My favourite junk wonder to pick up would be the Shwedagon Paya. In a game where religion has no effect on diplomacy, we might as well run Free Religion for +10% science everywhere (though I suppose you'll make me run Organized Religion instead. Fair enough), and we wouldn't need to worry about teching Theology. Like I said, though, it's a junk wonder; no need to concern ourselves about it. Pet wonder - I don't know, maybe Notre Dame (how valuable is that one considered)? We might need the Pikes for defence anyway. Pyramids - maybe if we have Stone; I like it a lot, but it's a rather large hammer investment for its time, and by no means a must-have. The ability to switch into Police State when threatened is interesting. How about this: we consider the Pyramids a goal if we have Stone, the Great Lighthouse a goal if we have lots of coast, and the Mausoleum our general goal; we can branch out to other wonders from that "top end" tech path as the situation allows. How does that sound?
So yep, granaries and whipping it is! My musings about Huyna and Bismarck were based on Inca or Pacal being taken already. I do think that Huyna of India is a beast, we should watch our for Old Harry.
