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[SPOILERS] HAK tries Civ5 for the first time before it becomes obsolete

OK, first off, I'm globally spoiled. 
Regardless I'm going to give some general opinions more or less as if I was ded-lurking (trying to omit influence from anything I might've picked up in any other thread). 
In my opinion I can't really tell you which city I think you should settle next, but I can sort of say which city sites I like more if this was a SP game where I was leading the inca  crazyeye 
I'm not an expert at civ V (certainly better at civ IV), but I'm sort of at the level where I've got a decent shot at winning games at the immortal level in SP if I make an effort.

Quote:My next city will be going on that Forest/Tundra/Hill between the lake and ocean.  It's the only spot I can really think of right now.

That's a decent spot in my mind. You want to settle spots that grabs you extra luxuries so you can keep on growing and that hill has pearls in second ring (sadly requiring a wb) and furs in third ring. If you run into happiness problems (quite likely) it's possible you'll need to buy a tile or two to get the furs in a decent time frame, but that might still be ok.

Generally, you don't need that many cities if you go for tradition (at least in SP). 3-4 cities might get you quite far. However, as you get free buildings for 4, that's probably the least number of cities I'd want to plan for...  lol 

As for other sites, well, seems like you've got some truffles just outside your capital that might do with a city, perhaps combined with the gold?

Other happiness seems fairly far away. Well, there's another gold...?

And then there's the island. You don't need an off shore city for trade routes the same way you do in civ IV, but it's an alternative. Need Optics (I believe) to be able to embark first though.

Another alternative could be something by the coast in the NE. It doesn't have any happiness which make me reluctant to go there early, but jungle gets quite nice once you have universities.

I think I said it already, but if you plant 1 city on coast I'd seriously consider planting another as well. Cargo ships are seriously nice at for instance being able to send twice as much food as a land caravan. You do need a granary in the starting city though (or a workshop for hammers) and early on they might not be worth it as the risk of barbarian pillaging is too large.

Quote:I don't have enough experience with this version of Civ to know optimal city spacing or even how the tile yields work with these cities.  So.... noidea 

I don't know much about optimal city spacing either, but general rules are you can work anything within your third ring, but it might take a while to get culture there. Minimum (game enforced) spacing between cities is 4 tiles. Might be that the "optimal" city spacing for a tradition empire would be something like 5-6 tiles, but much more important is to plant the city so that it has decent tiles to work quickly and/or you can build certain buildings if you want them (observatory if city next to mountain, garden from rivers if going for GPs, lighthouses next to coast...)

Generally tile yields are very poor in civ V, often just giving one extra of something if improved. Riverside farms are probably the first ones to get an increase when they go from +1->+2 food at civil service(?). Before then though you still have the extra +1f that granaries provide on wheat, deer and bananas. This applies even if you haven't improved the resource and quite often I don't even improve bananas as I prefer the eventual +2 science from university jungle to +1 food.

Quote:Then sadly, I need to go pasture those horses by destroying that first Farm I built, since my horses appeared on that tile. 

Do you?
You don't really get better yields by pasturing that tile, you get different yields. You'll have +1 hammer instead of +1 food and perhaps on this fairly hammer starved map that's something you might want to get, but it's not that obvious.
Of course, you don't get to use the horse resource for a horse unit unless you pasture, but after the map mess up we're anyhow only talking about one unit.

That's another point btw. Unless there's lots of iron scattered about, you might want to consider the ranged line of units for (resourceless) defense.

Quote:Oh, I also don't know what research path to take.
...No real idea why, other than to be able to build a Library and/or Great Library to help with research.

Can't comment on wonder races, but if you're going to build the Great Library, then you shouldn't build a regular library first as you get one for free if you manage to land the wonder. (Same applies for several other wonders such as Great Lighthouse giving a lighthouse, Hanging Gardens a garden, Hagia Sofia a temple and so on).

I don't feel like commenting too much on tech path, but one tip I can give you is to time your completion of Philosophy to a period when you don't expect to expand for a while.
Why? Well, the main reason for Philo (apart from subsequent techs) in my mind is the national college. To build this (National wonder) you need to have built a library in all your cities. Therefore you want to finish philo just as you're done with the last library in your current cities and have time to build the wonder before it's time to expand anew. Some people like to do this at 1 city, some 2, some 4 and someone perhaps as many as 9 cities, it depends on the map, play focus and personal preferences, but the timing thing still applies.

 
Quote:Policies....well, same deal.  I got Tradition, then Oligarchy, then Legalism.  I get another policy in 10 turns and I have no idea what to do with it.  Is it better to get more of Tradition (such as Landed Elite for faster growth) or should I add on one of the other policies? 

Generally, once you've started one policy tree you don't want to switch out of it until it's finished.
This is especially true with Tradition, as the finisher (4 free aqueducts in your first cities) is just so strong.
Landed Elite is good, as is the one to the right which has happy and gold for every 2 citizens in the capital and if your going for tGL you could even consider the wonder bonus one.
There are exceptions to this first rule. For instance Rationalism is considered so strong that one should generally begin that tree the moment it becomes available (even though this often comes at a point where you're very likely to have finished one tree and picked up 1-3 policies from a second tree).
Once social policies come into play, those might also be stronger than what other things you have available.
Quote:I just saw the 3rd civ (at least) start worshiping something, which I can only guess means they have adopted Piety.
Not necessarily true. A strong religious play often benefits from piety (shrines and temples half price to build, possible reformation beliefs etc), but you don't need Piety to found a pantheon or even necessarily to have a world dominating Religion.
To get a pantheon you need to build a shrine and wait for X turns , have one of the faith natural wonders in your border, build faith producing wonder(s), get lucky with popping huts or get lucky with being quick to meet religious city states (or befriend them).
To get a religion otoh you generally need a faith producing pantheon (desert folklore anyone?), have some faith (natural?) wonder or build the Hagia Sophia (receive 1 Great Prophet).
Played in PB27
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Thanks for the long detailed reply. Your reply was longer than even my full update. smile
Just a few quick responses from me for the moment, since I have some other things I need to do tonight while waiting to see if the turn actually comes around.

One thing I'm already regretting (and have been for awhile) is my coin-flip of choosing Inca over England. If I had England, I would be SOOO much better off right now and for the long-run.
Also part of the update I forgot to mention is that based on score increase and such, Yuri got Stonehenge last turn. So he's the first person to get a wonder.

For my city plans, I keep bouncing around what I want to do. I'll be keeping my options open throughout the next bunch of turns while building a settler, but along the lines of what I had stated earlier, I am also considering some of the spots west of my capital and not yet going for that southern coastal spot. So still not sure which way to go. But seeing how close my player neighbors are, and how close these two city-states are, and how close that barb camp is....I probably should start getting city spots closer to the "center" of our group rather than back-filling, which is what that other spot basically is. Just gotta figure out what spot has a good start. Also need to figure out what types of tiles are good for Civ5 cities to be settled on. I know in Civ4 we usually avoid settling on resources, but are there benefits of doing so in Civ5? I don't know. My capital is having very poor production, and I don't have much in the way of hammer tiles. I'll be doing a settler next, so hopefully that'll give me time to improve some hammer tiles while I build the settler.

For that Farmed Horse tile, I definitely don't plan to pasture it right away. I spent time farming that tile, so going to get the growth out of the extra food for as long as I can. Especially since I changed my mind about going for The Wheel to get me chariots. So since I'm delaying that, I don't need the horse resource as quickly anymore. I also need to start building some of my UU (the Archer replacement), to make use of that.

Regarding TGL, I do know not to build a Library first if I'm going to try for it. So that's just something for me to think about. Also, if I am going to think about it, my next tech path needs to be Mining->Masonry, since I'd need the extra hammers from that stone to build it. As I'm sure there are multiple other people who might want that one. I have a feeling I'm highly unlikely to get it, so probably shouldn't even try. But we'll see how that goes over the next few turns of my thinking about things.

And yeah, on the policy tree, I did figure it's likely best to finish Tradition before moving on to any others. Guess I was just looking for the tiny nudge of insight to confirm my thoughts. So thanks. That also makes the decision-making for that pretty easy for the next many turns. So I don't have to think about that now. smile

And thanks for the info on the pantheon thing. I didn't know what the various ways are to "adopt" one. Should probably check out the civlopedia on those at some point, since I really don't know much about them at all. LOL
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Settling on resources is bad in Civ 4 because the tile yields are so high when improved. The yields are less in Civ 5 so it's more tolerable. And in fact settling on a luxury is great because most luxuries yield just 1 more gold when improved and that's not worth working, and because you get the happy right away rather than waiting for a worker hookup.

And definitely finish Tradition once you've started it.

To get a pantheon just requires a certain amount of faith. taotao just listed all the ways to get that faith.
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(October 20th, 2016, 09:24)T-hawk Wrote: Settling on resources is bad in Civ 4 because the tile yields are so high when improved.  The yields are less in Civ 5 so it's more tolerable.  And in fact settling on a luxury is great because most luxuries yield just 1 more gold when improved and that's not worth working, and because you get the happy right away rather than waiting for a worker hookup.

Hmm.  I think I'm now considering having my 2nd city be to settle on that Desert Gold to the west of me.  It's 5 tiles away.  Nothing good 1st ring, but would eventually have Cows, Truffles, and Stone 2nd ring.  And Bananas 3rd ring.  I'm guessing those 1 Food yield grass looking tiles along the river are actually Marshes.  So ones those are farmed, and the March removed, they'll give the city some good food production.  Again, like most of my territory, not much in the way of hammers though.  I've got very few hills, which sucks for my Inca.  frown
The biggest downfall of that spot is it has an actual useless Desert tile 1st ring.  But basically any city I settle west of me, will encompass that tile somehow.

And if I'm understanding the 4-tiles between cities rule properly that would mean my possible dot-map would be:
1.  Settle on Gold
2.  Settle on Tundra/Hill 4SW of capital
3.  Settle on Cow which is in the 4-tile away center of city 1 & 2, and Milan.  As much as I would prefer not to settle on a Cow, that's the only valid tile in that region if I settle on the Gold.
4.  Settle on the coastal Plains tile SE of Milan 1E of the Wheat.

Now I may not (also simply may not be able to) go in that order, since I may want to try going north or NE before some of those.  But if I settle on the Gold, those are basically my valid locations to my west and south.  At least if I'm understanding the city spacing rules correctly.  If anyone doesn't understand which tiles I'm referring to, let me know and I'll try to mark up a copy of the screenshot I took to label them.
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Yes, you've got the spacing rules correct, and yes on the cow is the only available option if you do the gold and tundra hill.

Settling on the gold isn't all that important, though. I might move that 1 NE onto the river, and then cow city can be 1 NE of that with the truffles in first ring.
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Hmm, first taking a screenshot with F12 in the game is annoying in a certain way in that I can't find a way to upload it to my steam profile while still in the actual turn I'm playing. I took a shot just now but haven't ended my turn yet. So there isn't any way for me to share it until I actually decide what I'm going to do. So you'll see it in the post after this one.

Now to the actual topic of my posting. I just got screwed by yuri, who just settled a city 3 tiles north of that tile 1NE of the Gold (on the river, next to the lake) that I wanted to settle. So now I don't know where to send my settler. I'll think on it a few minutes and then you'll see the screenshot, which will likely be up before anyone reads this post anyway.
And in reality, I screwed myself, since I felt the need to get our a Slinger before the Settler because there have been so many barbs running around. So because I did that, I didn't get my settler up to that spot quick enough. frown
Gotta decide whether to still settle somewhere up there, or send him to the spot in the south. But I've already started the settler on the trip NW, so it'll be a wasted turn or two by having him now go down south. Ugh.
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So in the end, I decided to change my plan entirely and settle the northern spot suggested by the game.  So moved both my Slinger and Settler in that direction.  I'll be able to settle the city next turn I believe, with the Slinger being inside of it.  This city will have shared tiles with my capital, Bananas & Cattle 2nd ring, and the Gold 3rd ring.


And will be able to have the city in range of that barbarian encampment, such that once I have the units to do so, it'll help me with destroying it.  Which Mombasa has already asked for help in taking care of, so that'll get me some influence with then.
After my settler, I decided to take the risk of starting the Great Library, and this turn adopted the policy that gives extra hammers when building wonders.  So that dropped it's completion time from 12 turns to 10 turns.  If anyone else starts it around this time (or already started it), they'll beat me since my production in general is pretty crappy.  Most everything is pretty crappy now at this point, actually.  smile


This also sets up a pretty decent dot-map for the NE peninsula I think.  A city can go on the other recommended tile SW of the sheep (that forest).  Then another one 4NE of that on the coast SE of the Cattle, and another one on that far-east coast tile NE of the wheat.


Another thing of note is that Nicolai declared war on yuri a few turns ago.  No idea what's going on there, but guess I'll just have to wait and see.  It could be just a similar thing as he did with me by declaring to deter unit movements or something.

Still have no idea what i'm going to do out west now. Suppose I could settle on that plains tile 1W of the Gold. But if I want to keep my dot-map in the south, that would then force me to settle on top of those Cattle in that central spot in order to get the two coastal cities I need to plant.
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Quick update....
First, some old info.   A few turns ago, after founding my 2nd city I cleared that Barbarian Encampment.  Got some gold, and LOTS of influence with Mombasa:



But the big news for this turn...
Built the Great Library!


...and chose Iron Working.   So now just need to link up some Iron.  LOL

Annoyingly the only two spots are somewhat not-so-great spots.  One is north of my new  city (3 tiles away), but is directly east of Yuri's city (2 tiles away).  I may have to buy that tile so that it's in my culture so I can eventually send a worker to improve it.  Question for the lurkers on mechanics.  How do competing culture stuffs work in Civ5?  Like how does it being near Yuri affect my ownership of the tile (if I buy it now)?

The other Iron is right on that Tundra hill in the south where I need to settle a city.  So good part is that when I settle a city there I'll instantly have access to Iron.  Annoying part is that I won't get the production boost for working an improved tile.  But I guess that also makes it a tile that an invading army can't pillage my Iron mine.  They'd have to actually take the city from me in order to stop me from having access to Iron.  So hopefully those details outweigh any negative of having to settle the city on it rather than as a tile in the borders.

I probably should have taken a few more photos, especially showing the area and such, but I keep forgetting to take enough photos before ending turn.   I'm so used to pitboss where I'll often end the turn, and then start taking screenshots.
I did take one showing my tech tree.


I originally had myself on Horseback Riding (may have put 1 turn into it), but while staring at this screen I kept thinking about why.  Realized I'm in no position at this moment to improve my horses yet, so no need for that tech right now.  So after staring at it for awhile decided to go for Optics so I can send a scout across that water to the little island to get those ruins I see over there.  And just to explore more that way.  And also just cause I can't think of what other techs I want right now.
Plus I think it's now time to have my 3rd city be on that hill in the south to get the Iron, and for that city I want Sailing for workboats.  I would prefer that to be more of a backfill city after getting some of the spots closer to my opponents, but I think it's more of a spot I need now.  But we'll see.

Right now I'm building a worker in each city.  Then probably need to build at least one one more Slinger and/or Warrior.  And at some point start on the next Settler.  And also there's buildings and other stuff.   Bah, can't think.  I'll post more pics and thoughts tomorrow after I play that turn, since I'm off from work and will be home when the turn comes and have more time to spend on it.
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Congrats on the library!
Any certain plans with choosing Iron working? 
I'm guessing just to be able to build swordsmen once you have iron(?) but anyway it was one of the most expensive techs available so I guess that's reason enough.

Quote:Annoying part is that I won't get the production boost for working an improved tile.  But I guess that also makes it a tile that an invading army can't pillage my Iron mine.
Well, good thing this at least this is ciV and not cIV. A resource such as iron only give one extra production to the tile.
Remember here though that you only have access to that 1 copy of iron (-> 1 swordmen, not an infinite amount).

Quote:So after staring at it for awhile decided to go for Optics so I can send a scout across that water to the little island to get those ruins I see over there.  And just to explore more that way.  And also just cause I can't think of what other techs I want right now.
Sounds good. Sailing also get's you one extra trade route once you have the spare production to build a caravan/cargo ship (which admittedly might take a while).

My (very rough) impression of techs available:
Philo: NC is good, not sure where you stand on the built libraries/desperate for more cities scale though.
Drama: Writers guild has its uses in SP, but without great food and in MP I'm much more doubtful (haven't played MP though).
HBR: pre-requisite to CS, but otherwise not the biggest fan of the tech or units.
Math: the Hanging Gardens is great in SP. Not sure of your chances in MP with having already built one wonder and not doing a beeline. Might depend on if other competitors are in Tradition?
Construction: Composite Bows are in my view the best unit of this era both on defense and offense. Doesn't get you closer to CS (if that's a target) though.

Quote:Question for the lurkers on mechanics.  How do competing culture stuffs work in Civ5?  Like how does it being near Yuri affect my ownership of the tile (if I buy it now)?
Basically you don't compete with culture. Whoever claims the tile first will own the tile eternally (or until the city is captured/razed).
Played in PB27
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(November 11th, 2016, 01:14)taotao Wrote:
Quote:Question for the lurkers on mechanics.  How do competing culture stuffs work in Civ5?  Like how does it being near Yuri affect my ownership of the tile (if I buy it now)?
Basically you don't compete with culture. Whoever claims the tile first will own the tile eternally (or until the city is captured/razed).

Hmm, ok.  Guess I should have learned about that mechanic right away.  That means I need to buy the tile this coming turn (as long as Yuri doesn't do so on his turn).  Since my guess is this also means that Yuri might not have Bronze Working yet in order to know that the tile there has Iron on it.  Since I'm sure he at least already knows the mechanic ( smoke), and I would assume he'd want to buy any Iron tiles as quickly as he can.  So hopefully the tile is still available when the turn comes to me today, so I can buy it.
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