[PB64] Lurking Randomly

[Mjmd]

But basically, if at any point before nauf's t188/189 double move they had maintained turn order, then Amica gets the city. I really don't see how Amica is wrong here. If nauf knew that he was in a settling race, why did he double move?

Nauf DIDN'T know is the key here. In the first instance Amica didn't know when they double moved onto the hill. Amica only knew the double move turn. In this case Nauf didn't know he was a settler race and double moved. Amica SAW the two workers on the hill and knew about the settler. The two workers on that hill had to mean a settling race as there is no other reason for them to be there. IE Amica double moved while knowing it was probable a settler race was occurring. That is why Amica is in the wrong here.

Edit: I can't prove it, but I also suspect Serdoa camped the turn to double move into that situation and then just wanted to make arguments that he was right. But again, arguments for the etiquette thread. Under current rules Nauf is right. My solution is still lurker coin flip for turn order but as I've been told multiple times, current rules get followed so Nauf should get the reload.

[Psillycyber]

This shouldn't really affect the decision, but if it's any consolation to Amica, he got the better city spot.  Fever Dream is on a hill and can at least control its first ring of tiles.  If nauf gets the Threemosabe spot, it's even more of a goner than Fever Dream is, sure to be razed in 5 or 6 turns when the next round of war inevitably erupts. 

[Mjmd]

Oh 100% agree, but ya it doesn't affect the decision. Its possible just wants so can put a couple longbows on. I don't think that is a great use, but if already had settler possible just wants to do something with. But ya his decision to make.

[Mjmd]

Anyone still have a problem with the reload?

In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.

With the two workers there I think it was pretty clear Nauf was going for the spot and therefore Amica should have realized. Now Amica may not have (didn't see or do a lot of thinking about ect), but I think rules should be applied consistently. While I would trust whatever Amica's explanation would be as to how they missed, I think a reasonable consistent approach should be taken to avoid favoritism and ruling different cases depending on how much you trust the person.

That all being said, if sometime after this we want to have another discussion in the ethics thread, I'm game, but for now I think we should reload and get the game rolling again.

[Mjmd]

Pin, Mig, Charriu. You had all previously opposed a reload, but I think the rules are pretty clear here. Turn order is established when settler race is known, so who double moved whom when doesn't matter. I've been part on the losing side of this argument often enough I'm pretty sure of how this rule works, but right now I'm actually in the minority so would like some more people to confirm they agree.

[pindicator]

IMO if the rule states it is a certain way then we should be consistent with that and look at changing the rule for the next game.

[Charriu]

Agree and I like Psillycybers idea of keeping the turn split after war especially if there is land to settle in the previous war zone

[Psillycyber]

Agree and I like Psillycybers idea of keeping the turn split after war especially if there is land to settle in the previous war zone

Yes, I think in future games that should be the rule (which, if we had been following it, would have left the turnsplit as Amica > Nauf during the 10 turns of enforced peace), but to make things clear, in this case we should follow the existing rules and allow Nauf the reload for T190.

[Miguelito]

I would have left it as is but I'm in the minority. But we really need to agree to use coinflips in the future, the way it is it's annoying.

[Psillycyber]

Amica has understandably requested an explanation before we move on with the game. Which one of the realmsbeyond veterans would like to explain the decision to Amica in his thread so that we can get the game unpaused?