[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[newbie]

With gold at your capital, then how about going for an early academy? How does this compare to having the Great Library? At least the gold should make up for your lack of economic traits in the early game.

Selling praets (or other agressive troops) for gold, or acting as a paid mercenary seems like the other way to aid your economy. (One thing to take into account for though is that since you are a long way from anyone other than your current planned war target, then the maintenance/supply costs during travel will add up. Maybe no more efficient for you than spending hammers on wealth, but at least it has the side-effect of reducing other people's economies...)

[Whosit]

With gold at your capital, then how about going for an early academy? How does this compare to having the Great Library? At least the gold should make up for your lack of economic traits in the early game.

Selling praets (or other agressive troops) for gold, or acting as a paid mercenary seems like the other way to aid your economy. (One thing to take into account for though is that since you are a long way from anyone other than your current planned war target, then the maintenance/supply costs during travel will add up. Maybe no more efficient for you than spending hammers on wealth, but at least it has the side-effect of reducing other people's economies...

Well, I would still need a Great Scientist for an Academy. I certainly could pop one just with the 2 Library Scientists, but somehow managing to grab the G. Library would be a huge coup for me, and would help make up for the lack of other economic traits, though the Academy does sound like a good idea.

I had actually thought about working as a "Mercenary," but we'll see how the distance plays into that. I suppose I could sell my troops, too, but we'll see if that becomes an option.

Anyway, did some more testing, and if I aggressively chop forests at RR, I can get a denial town down on T65. Probably about the same time I grab my Iron Town, hopefully. It's gonna kill my economy, though, heh. But could still be worth it.

[Rowain]

Since you plan to war with Korea (making any agreements null and void) you can plant the city on the copper directly. This would give you an unpillageable souce of copper which would allow you to work the fish and the marble.
Alternatly you can also make just some units and wait if there is a Korean-settlerparty moving towards the copper giving you a free worker (and a bad reputation if it happens while you still have a treaty).

[Whosit]

Since you plan to war with Korea (making any agreements null and void) you can plant the city on the copper directly. This would give you an unpillageable souce of copper which would allow you to work the fish and the marble.
Alternatly you can also make just some units and wait if there is a Korean-settlerparty moving towards the copper giving you a free worker (and a bad reputation if it happens while you still have a treaty).

Well, I think we have a philosophical difference. I don't believe that just because I plan to go to war with Korea that any deal I make with them is "null and void." I intend to honor the letter of my agreements while they are in force. I'm also not terribly worried about losing a source of Copper since Regals' is in the backlines. Sure, plako might still have that Warrior wandering around, but an Axeman can punt him no sweat.

Settling ON the copper may or may not be a good idea, depending what else is in the fog. Again, I don't really want to break my deals. I won't really consider this deal null until war is actually declared by one party. But, I will admit, necessity dictates action, so I'll just wait and see what other tiles are nearby.

I'd also rather not have a Settler raider party waiting around, as they'll probably just cost me precious gold in unit supply upkeep (since they would have to wait outside my borders). Unless there is another source of metal very close to Korea . . . well, hopefully they are not researching Iron Working as well. If they are, things could get "interesting."

Oh, and on a side note, I suspect that P'yongyang constructed something after the Monument, but I'm not sure what it was. A Warrior? See, there are only 4 hammers invested in something right now (consistent with +1 city square, +1 wheat for two turns), and the monument was whipped several turns ago with enough overflow to go into . . . something. Or perhaps that something is waiting in the queue?

35 hammers are in Seoul. That's too much for an Archer, Chariot, or even Axeman. I wonder if they picked up Masonry? Or Pottery? I guess I'll know for sure soon.

[newbie]

Maybe you could get your Great Scientist for the academy from philosophical Korea in return for NAP during the praet era and possibly something else (a praet or two?)?

Could be in completely good faith if you like (and a sweet deal for you which plays on then resolves their fears), but this doesn't seem to chime in with your current intentions...

Another possible 'negotiating method' being that you land a stack of praets on their border, and coerce the great scientist. Either they accept some kind of Great Scientist for N praets + NAP trade, or you use up your praets in another way. Might work for getting the deal signed, but would probably reduce the chances of good faith when it comes to their fulfilling their end of the bargain later on...

I remember one of the diplo messages from Korea to your team proposing 'some kind of deal involving praets and hwachas' (quoted on their thread I think, but I don't think it's a spoiler since it was sent to LiPing but she just didn't get around to posting it). It's a bit of a shame that you don't have another obvious target, since catapults (and hwachas even more so) extend the useful lifetime of your toys a great deal. Maybe they have a target they can redirect your praets towards? Obviously in return for giving land (or other) concessions to you including NAP over the hwacha period... With your iron working beeline, then your research of construction is greatly delayed, but construction is likely to be a research priority for Korea due to their UU. So trading with them gives you a much larger window of opportunity for using the praet+catapult/hwacha combination than otherwise. Pity you don't have an obvious target for this yet, since it would be fun to try if you did...

[Jabah]

Don't worry about this copper, by the time Korea could settle there and connect it to their capital, you should have 10 praetorians ready at their door.
(edit before you have any false ideas about what I know or don't know of Korea: I mean there are a least 10t to road and no river so connecting this city to the rest of Korea will take ages and they also will have to mine/road copper)


If you are that worried, I still would settle the 'good' city and be ready to declare and capture any worker before they manage to both road and mine the tile (if you settle the good place, they can't settle ON the copper, which would be the only fast way for them to save the day.

So my advice is relax, keep watching for a settler going north (you don't even know if they have scouted that place).

Jabah

On the other hand, the 'good' city has lots of hammer potential and could really help buiding an army (could possibly be your HE city, as being coastal it could also help building a navy if ever the 'northern waters' are of any strategic value)
Since you plan to have a settler ready for Iron anyway, have it ready to change towards that place if :
- no Iron at all
- iron already in
- Korea threatening to go there

[Rowain]

The 'null and void' was meant in the case you declare war on them.

[Whosit]

Ha ha, this is what I pay you guys for . . . um, I do pay you guys, right? =P

@newbie: You know, I don't think that LiPing mentioned that Praetorian for Hwacha deal. Though, you are right, there isn't really a good target for me. I could wage a war of vengeance against the Inca, but it's at least 24 tiles to their capital city, so any army I send would probably be outdated/outnumbered by the time it got there.

"Negotiating" a trade for a Great Scientist is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that would work out. I don't really have any control over when/if they pop one (they could avoid running specialists just to spite me), and as you say, I may have trouble ensuring that they live up to their side of the bargain.

Unfortunately, I think that due to our proximity, a war to end all wars is the best course of action. The benefit to me is that, if there is no Korea, I will probably be too far away from anyone to make it worth their while to go after me, at least until more territory is claimed and people expand. Actually, I think I'll send Athlete a message asking about how far apart we are going through the center.

@Jabah: Good point about the Copper and choice of settlement.

I especially appreciate your advice to just relax. As I'm sure you've all noticed, I seem to have a tendency to freak out. Of course, I think I'm partially justified because I figure all of my carefully laid plans will shatter like so much glass. As ephemeral as this game itself.

Right, yeah.

I also ran some numbers, and the "Good" site is actually really good! I can generate enough food to work every tile, even if I workshop all the flatland. At max size, it could generate about 21 hpt, maybe 27 if I put the Maoi Statues there. At size 6, I think I could pull out 17 hpt (as good as RR). I can't quite remember how much a Marble quarry on the plains is worth. 1F/ 3H/ 2C? I'll have to double check later. (Actually, just confirmed it. That is correct.)

@Rowain: It seems I misunderstood your first comment. Yes, war would indeed nullify our agreements.

I'll need to put in some more thought, but, as I've said before and will surely say many, many times more, final plans will depend on where the Iron appears. However, I am liking my idea of chopping out a Settler from RR for a quick 4th city. Either getting the "Good" denial location, or an Iron location, while the Settler from Imperial Center goes for the Iron location or the "Original" location.

If I do this, I need to plan how I'm getting more Workers. I believe I was going to build a 4th from Imperial Center, but if I get 4 towns down, I'll want a 5th. I want to have at least #ofWorkers = n +1, where n = #ofCities. Regals Reach can do one fairly quickly once it hits max size, though I could probably chop one out if I have to. We'll see. I'll run some more sims later.

Anyway, Settling plan:

Best case:
Iron appears within my territory or near planned locations.
-Settle Good Denial (production site).
-Settle Original (commerce site).

OK case:
Iron appears, but not near either planned location.
-Settle Iron
-Settle Denial or Original (probably Original for the commerce).

Worst case:
No Iron appears.
-Settle Good Denial
-Settle Original

I know one of you lurkers, can't remember who offhand, suggested 1NE of Original, but I've checked it out and I don't really like it as much. There's no food in small cross, though that's a minor gripe. There are fewer forests to chop right away (bigger gripe), and it just doesn't feel right (aesthetic gripe?). It may be a slight waste of the Sheep, and it leaves the city with only one bonus food source, but I think it'll be OK. I can settle near the sheep later, and make a passable commerce town. Maybe there's seafood in the fog? I can only hope.

. . . Y'know, I just realized I'll have to wait until tonight to mail Athlete. The downside of not quickly memorizing my password. Oh well, it's not urgent.

I think there was something else I was going to say, but I completely forgot it! Oh, right!

The Border Region. I'll try to snap a better shot of it later, but I wonder if Korea will settle there at all. I think that I effectively have de facto control of the region because my borders bump up right against the tiles they would settle on. Sure, they can still put cities down, but they would have to fight just to get tiles in their small cross. If they leave it vacant long enough (and I don't end up going to war with them), I might just claim this de facto control and settle there myself. Yeah, I'd have to fight some Korea culture myself, but not as bad as them and I could probably still turn a profit from them.

So, yup, that's where I am now. Definitely want to get 2 more Workers out quickly so I can bring all my cities up to speed (while laying down a good internal road network).

[Whosit]

The turn flipped over, and a lot of score increases showed up. Sulla and Speaker are now in the lead. Not unexpected, I figured that it was just a matter of time. Their score increased by 8, though. Is that consistent with learning a Classical technology?

I am really started to worry that I am already horrendously backwards compared to the others. I suppose I really should sit down and try to figure out which techs were learned based on the time intervals between them, but it's a lot of work, heh . . . . Am I backwards, or have I just been spending too much time on lower tier techs? I mean, that Gold should really have given me an early research advantage.

Oh, and Korea got a new tech (+6 points), so I really should figure out what they teched. It's been about 6 turns since the last tech, I think. I'll have to double check that.

[Whosit]

Hmm, Korean productions numbers are confusing me quite a bit lately.

P'yongyang seems to have gone from 4 hammers to 45, then grew to 54. Those numbers don't make any sense at all. It only recently grew to size 2, and cannot be making 9 hammers per turn. They would have to be working two mines, one of which has metal. I know they have no Copper, unless the RNG saw fit to let them pop some in their brand new mine. They shouldn't have Iron Working yet, unless they can somehow tech it in 6 turns.

Seoul's numbers are equally baffling. They seem to have had 25 hammers invested in something, then finished it, and now have 16 hammers in something else. They are size 4. Max hammers . . . . 11. Maybe 8 the turn before (grew last turn . . . ). 25 + 8 + 11 = 44 - 16 = 28. No no no. Hmm. Arrgh, I dunno. Could be a Chariot, if they have Animal Husbandry and the Wheel. I'm not sure.

I tried to backtrack their techs. I know they got Bronze Working on T28, because they got it earlier than me. Five turns later, T33, it looks like they got something else. Hunting fits the timing the best. Next, Pottery or Masonry on T42, Pottery being most likely. It's a guess based on their estimated bpt and the time spent researching. Possibly something else, I'd have to double check. No, wait . . . .

Argh, I need to look at the power graph again. I'm pretty sure they got the Wheel shortly after me based on the power graph. What they just teched I suspect is Archery, but I'll have to wait a couple of turns to confirm that. They have no Copper in their empire, and they surely do not have Iron Working.

Actually, I should do some recalculations on those techs. If they did get Hunting, they probably camped the Furs, and potentially have more gold to contribute to research. They are probably teching on par with me, at least. My gold barely makes up for lacking the river tiles they have.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain that they are going after military techs . . . .

Anyway, a few pictures.

Last turn, after one move, Greedo saw this.



So I ended his move early. Fortunately, the Barbarian moved how I expected, and Greedo was able to evade him next turn.



My scouts noted this:



An island in the middle of an inland sea? Worth investigating. Controlling this could be very crucial in the game if it is what I think it is. I may want to settle the Denial city, tech Sailing sooner rather than later, and see what's out there. If it's really a big central landmass, controlling it would be of great strategic importance.

For some reason, I can see Athlete's second city in the trade screen. Kashyyyk. And I just got this funny e-mail.

Hello Whosit,

I must admit I had a little chuckle when I saw your scout "Bib Fortuna". I was wondering if you had aptly named him so, immediately or upon seeing our warriors name of Ellorrs Madak decided upon the scouts name. I will say I was not expecting to see anybody else use any "Star Wars" names (but am pleasantly surprised). Though choosing the dark side of the force I might have to rethink our friendly relations ! JK, JK, JK!!!

Athlete

I guess he noticed. (I had to look up Ellorrs Madak; I think Athlete may know more obscure arcana than I.) Hmm, it may be a little early, but perhaps I should go ahead with my "reorganization?" Yes . . . . Since the cat is out of the bag. More in a moment.