[SPOILERS] Team Orgynized: Parkin/Arki/Magno embark on a kinky adventure

[Lord Parkin]

Turn 23

Demographics

EggHeads and Margarita gained points from their outer BFC land earlier than the rest of us due to their Creative traits.

It also looks like Care Bears finished a tech and had a population growth. Soldiers went up by 9000, so perhaps it was Bronze Working that they finished? That or a whole lot of folks just finished Warriors.

[Lord Parkin]

Response from Maga:

Dear Orgy Nized,

I am glad that you agreed to doing something more substantial than one of those doggie-style NAPs - those are best suited for your next door neighbors . Let us do Famke Janssen then (183 turns). I am grateful for your generous offer of doing even turn 222 - but all those "2" are reminding me of my suddenly single status . Famke Janssen NAP (until turn 183) also has a nice numerology behind it - 1 for current number of players in my team, 3 for yours and 8 is the most lucky number according to Chinese - and my birthday (8/8) .

Yeah, it was somewhat unexpected that I met you before your direct neighbors - I was so curious to explore the world, so that i raced forward, instead of exploring my vicinity, a noobie mistake I guess . I would definitely would like some team mate later down the road, but at the moment will rather remind single, better be single than in a relationship that is not working well again - so I am not rushing to look for a "rebound" teammate, just continue downing Margaritas on the rocks. Fortunately, not much more to do at this stage than pressing EOT and moving the scoutess (thanks - with your help I was able to name her! ), so I should be OK for now.

I hope that our long-term NAP will also include free exchange of information about our world and our deals with other civilizations. So far, we still have met only you and Native Americans - but not our Western neighbors. Have you met anyone else? We are discussing NAP with Native Americans of about 50 turns duration, but that was not finalized yet. I guess that you discuss something similar with them or even have an agreement already in place?

In terms of our world, I think you are very right that the layout is 5 by 2. We have initially thought that it may be a donut map (Inland Sea), it looked that way after we met Native Americans (see attached screenshot). I am sorry for the poor quality of it, I am playing on a virtual machine so taking screenshots is a hit or miss, typically a miss for me . But as you seem from it, the Native Americans capitols is to the West from us, but also 2 tiles North, so we initially expected that your capitol will be even far North than theirs, but it is 1S, actually. Also the body of water to the North that we initially though was a huge inland see is probably one of the many lakes we encountered, so it is probably a Lakes map. What do you think?

You are very right that maintenance costs for adding our capitol to your empire would be rather steep :P. It is even farther West than you think, 15 tiles West from Native Americans, not 14.

The main theme we have seen so far is that things are similar, but not identical: Terminus is 15 tiles West + 2 tiles North from us, you are 14 tiles West +1 tile South from Terminus. We also have different resources in our BFCs: I have Corn, Cow and Fish, Native Americans have Fish, Wheat and something and I saw you have Deer. I would be also very interested in exchanging info about resources you have seen on the map so far: I have seen Cow, Corn, Fish, Clam, Banana, Silk, Pig, Wine, Spices, Silk, Rice, Gold and Gems.

Yours drunken Margarita

Here's the screenshot she attached:

So, no luck on the T222 NAP - but T183 still isn't bad. I guess she wants to leave her options open around the time when her UU (Janissary) becomes available.

Seems like she's very open regarding the game, much more so than most players I've encountered before. I certainly haven't seen anyone volunteer that much information so early after meeting in quite a while! I don't mind sharing information on the map, resources, and contacts together. I'm slightly more reserved on sharing screenshots this early on, partly since they're so easy to share around... but as long as they're carefully chosen, cropped and/or "poor quality" it shouldn't be a problem. I'm rather cautious about sharing details on deals with other civs, since that has the potential to backfire badly and undermine our relationships with other civs if the information is passed on to the wrong team at the right time. I've made such arrangements in games before, but there has to be a strong trust established in advance as it's essentially treating someone as your #1 ally above all others while hoping they're doing the same.

All in all though, a very good start. Any thoughts on where to go from here, or insights into Maga's playing style? Are we particularly special, or does she tend to be this open with anyone who's friendly?

[Lord Parkin]

Turn 24

Demographics

Bowsling & Aivoturso had a capital growth. GG finished a tech, as did Blame Caledorn. Soldiers went up by 12000 last turn, so probably one finished Bronze Working, and the other either finished The Wheel (4000 soldiers) or a 2000 soldier tech combined with two other teams finishing Warriors.

Top Cities

Not much to see here, I just noticed that Eagles & Condors have undergone a renaming following their change of leadership mentioned in the tech thread.

And so in a reverse-coup the great empire of OxyphenSuttristan was founded. The generals disappeared and so the janitors must rule - a model OxySuttocracy for the nations.

(HBHR and Kurumi are MIA, so Suttree and I are taking over for now)

[Lord Parkin]

Here's the best I can manage at T41 with a Worker -> 2 Warrior -> Settler plan, focussing getting the second city out quickly:

On T25 work the plains-forest-hill with the third citizen and build the Warrior. Then on T26 switch to the (now improved) Deer and build the Worker. Finish off the Warrior and build another while working the Deer/Fish/Sheep and a grassland-hill-mine when at size 4. Chop arrives to finish off the second Warrior with exactly 15 hammers of overflow (max) on the turn we grow to size 5, then we start the Settler. First Worker goes mine -> chop+mine -> road, second Worker goes mine -> chop+mine (all on different tiles).

I went for The Wheel straight after Bronze Working to shave a turn off founding our second city with a road - otherwise we found T43. Mysticism is still 2 turns from finishing in this sim, so we could either build a 3-turn Worker or two 1-turn Warriors while we wait.

Continuing from this plan, by building 2 Warriors on T41 and T42 we're able to get back to exploration earlier. The downside is that we're a bit behind on our forest chops and a few beakers down on our research, due to spending 5-6 turns not working the Sheep or Fish rather than just 3-4, and a turn at 80% research to finish Mysticism on time. Stonehenge finishes on T49, or T48 if we divert one of the Workers from Katniss - though this is less than ideal since it slows hooking up the awesome resources there.

Here's the situation at T49:

Alternatively, by building the Worker on T41 we're significantly ahead on our forest chops. Stonehenge still finishes on T49, or T48 if we divert a Worker from Katniss. The downside is that it's a few more turns before we have a spare Warrior for exploration.

Here's a T49 screenie:

[Arkipeller]

All in all though, a very good start. Any thoughts on where to go from here, or insights into Maga's playing style? Are we particularly special, or does she tend to be this open with anyone who's friendly?

I do not know Maga's ability to build ow empires, but I know she is good at upkeep. Another point is that I ma very certain that she is a woman of her word, since she was very offended at last time an agreement broke. Our issue should rather be to discourage Maga to tell the same info to the other teams, giving us a monopoly on that information for now.
I suspect unless someone claims monopoly on Maga's friendship, there will be more "friendlies" that she is going to tell her intel to. Personally if we make a formal NAP, I would add a small clause that "Prohibit the possibility of the agreeing parts to exchange visual, oral or written map intel with other teams without informing the other side of cooperation".

I feel very strict now...

[WilliamLP]

My thoughts looking at that are: do you really need that many mines this early? When are you going to work them all, given that you surely are never going to give up any of the three food tiles in Hermione?

A settler on T40 / settlement on T42 is going to be behind the RB metagame for speed. I'm not saying that's bad, I don't know, a stronger econ may make up for it, but I will guess that most will settle faster. If the second city can work gold sooner by being settled sooner, that's worth some sacrifices.

Also, I'm not sure a T48 Henge is going to score, though it might if everyone else sees it as a foregone conclusion that the IND civ will get it. My doubts are from timing in other games, and that at least a 37 settler / 42 henge is possible with this opening, which might be close to how I'd play it.

[Lord Parkin]

I do not know Maga's ability to build ow empires, but I know she is good at upkeep.

Not sure what you mean by "ow empires"... was that a typo?

Another point is that I ma very certain that she is a woman of her word, since she was very offended at last time an agreement broke.

Ok. Perhaps we should emphasize that we also take our word very seriously, and do not break NAP's.

Our issue should rather be to discourage Maga to tell the same info to the other teams, giving us a monopoly on that information for now.

Yeah, that seems like a reasonably good idea. Our partnership is liable to become unstable later on if Maga develops a similar relationship with other teams. You can't have more than one "best ally" that you tell everything to - you have to keep some secrets from someone, or else alienate everyone.

I suspect unless someone claims monopoly on Maga's friendship, there will be more "friendlies" that she is going to tell her intel to. Personally if we make a formal NAP, I would add a small clause that "Prohibit the possibility of the agreeing parts to exchange visual, oral or written map intel with other teams without informing the other side of cooperation".

I feel very strict now...

We could probably word it a bit more kindly, but I'd actually go further than this - it's not the map info that's so critical, but the information on dealings with other civs. If we're telling Maga the details of every NAP we sign and vice versa, that's an awful lot of powerful information. If one of us betrays the other that could be rather nasty. So best to either agree in advance to keep this stuff in complete confidence between us, or else not to share it in the first place.

[Lord Parkin]

My thoughts looking at that are: do you really need that many mines this early? When are you going to work them all, given that you surely are never going to give up any of the three food tiles in Hermione?

Actually, to build the 2 Warriors and Stonehenge as efficiently as possible, I worked 4 mines + the Fish tile. When building any future wonders we'll probably want to work them all. Add that we'll hook up the Gold about T50, and be able to grow to size 6, and suddenly we'll need all those mines most of the time. Of course if we delay Stonehenge and build more Workers/Settlers instead, then we can delay some of the mines.

A settler on T40 / settlement on T42 is going to be behind the RB metagame for speed. I'm not saying that's bad, I don't know, a stronger econ may make up for it, but I will guess that most will settle faster. If the second city can work gold sooner by being settled sooner, that's worth some sacrifices.

I'll test that next, though having only 1 Worker between 2 cities at first is extremely slow. It's usually not worth settling a city if you're unable to keep all your citizens working improved tiles.

Also, I'm not sure a T48 Henge is going to score, though it might if everyone else sees it as a foregone conclusion that the IND civ will get it. My doubts are from timing in other games, and that at least a 37 settler / 42 henge is possible with this opening, which might be close to how I'd play it.

I'm hoping that other teams won't bother with the Henge because of having an Industrious nation in the game combined with a player renowned for his love of Stonehenge. At least three teams shouldn't bother - the two Creative ones and the Inca. So that just leaves six potential builders. Still, I'll do a test for comparison to see just how early we can reasonably get Stonehenge, and how much it sets us back in everything else.

[Arkipeller]

Not sure what you mean by "ow empires"... was that a typo?

own*

[Arkipeller]

BTW: I am so freeking curious what happens in the lurkers-thread... I have to read it when this game is done.