Races, Units, Buildings

[Catwalk]

Agree completely, they're still very powerful with 4 ammo but nowhere near as game breaking. And they should cost 50.

[Domon]

Agree completely, they're still very powerful with 4 ammo but nowhere near as game breaking. And they should cost 50.

i'd rather give them a move of 4 instead of an higher cost. however, i'm of the opinion that prodution cost is the lesser problem for nomads, the real one is food for mantaining early stacks. hell, with a move of 4 and 4 ammo i think they could go back to 40 production cost.

[Catwalk]

At 4 moves + 4 ammo and cost of 50 they're still a better unit than almost everything else in that price class.

[GermanJoey]

They're definitely a best-in-class unit, but I still think you've gotta look at them in context with the rest of their race. Nomads have to rely on Horsebowmen pretty hard in the early game because they're weaker in other areas compared to other races.

[Catwalk]

They have another best-in-class unit: Rangers. They're by far the best ranged unit, all things considered.

I'm going to see if I can break Impossible consistently with nomads, I think they're ungodly powerful.

[GermanJoey]

I can't agree with that... Rangers are pretty good units, but they take forever to build up to, are expensive per unit, and can't keep up with Griffons. They've also only got four figures, so their damage max is a lot worse than some other contenders once you start piling on buffs. Honestly, if I had access to Adamant with Nomads I would probably use it to spam Horsebows, if it was a late Myrran plant, and Griffons if it was a miracle Arcanus spot.

better units coming out of armories: Paladins, Elf Lords, Minotaurs, War Trolls
better ranged units straight-up: Centaurs, Draconian Bowmen & Magicians, Nightmares
better ranged units with buffing: Javelineers, Longbowmen, Barbarian Bowmen, Troll Magicians, High Men Magicians, Slingers, Pegasai

IMHO Centaurs are the best bang for your buck when it comes to ranged units. Myrran - so adamantium abounds - huge hp, high damage, high mobility, very cheap buildup, and very cheap per-unit.

[Nelphine]

Right, and horsebowman are (for hit and run tactics) better than centaurs due to 8 ammo. If they don't get killed they will do more damage. Sure costwise, they die fast enough, but they're amazing for how early they are.

[Seravy]

Right, and horsebowman are (for hit and run tactics) better than centaurs due to 8 ammo. If they don't get killed they will do more damage.

And that's greatest problem with them - they don't die. At 7 base resistance (which goes up to 9 with levels), most early game unit curses have less than 50% chance to work. At 3*4 = 12 health, common direct damage spells can't kill them either in one shot. Early casting skill is low, they enemy can at best use 2-3 spells against them, so they kill like one per battle, a marginal amount in a stack of 5-9. And at a movement of 5, they can't be killed by melee units, as they won't reach them. Which leaves ranged units, but early ranged units are 1 health per figure, so the horsebowmen win against them - they can kill bowmen easily but the bowmen need twice as many shots to kill a horsebowmen. And before we get happy and think "but magicians counter them, they have missile immunity", no they don't. At 5 moves, they can catch the magicians and kill them in melee, and with a 3 times lower cost, even if the magician kills two horsebowmen before that happens (it's more realistic to expect it to kill only one), the horsebowmen are still "winning" as they only lost a cost of 80 in units vs the magician's 120.

The only thing that reliably kills a horsebowmen and is affordable in the early game is probably Web to stop them, if strong enough melee units are available to fight it, but even then horsebowmen have acceptable melee stats and will do some damage.

The unit is cheap, fast, resistant, semi-durable, and has both melee and ranged attacks. It literally is good at everything.

I guess their ammo has to be reduced to at most 6, maybe 4 but I'm worried about 4 being overkill.

Rangers definitely are best in their class if that means "highest missile ranged attack without buffing", whether they are the best unit in their tier is a different question (they aren't, but they are pretty good)

[Nelphine]

I'm suggesting 4 ammo specifically to compare them with other hit and run range units - sprites, centaurs, caster heroes. Very few other units have both flying and ranged attacks (and every one I can think of is 4 ammo), or very high movement and ranged attacks (and again most of them have 4 ammo).

The only other units with high movement and ranged attack and 8 ammo I can think of is an Archer hero, but heroes should be better (and they compare to caster heroes because immunity to missiles is much easier than immunity to magic) and maybe a caster chamipon, but, champion, and the only other flying with ranged that MIGHT have 8 ammo is a draconian bowman. And they give up a flame breath to get it.

[Seravy]

I'm suggesting 4 ammo specifically to compare them with other hit and run range units - sprites, centaurs, caster heroes.  Very few other units have both flying and ranged attacks (and every one I can think of is 4 ammo), or very high movement and ranged attacks (and again most of them have 4 ammo).

The only other units with high movement and ranged attack I can think of is an Archer hero, but heroes should be better (and they compare to caster heroes because immunity to missiles is much easier than immunity to magic), and the only other flying with ranged that MIGHT have 8 ammo is a draconian bowman. And they give up a flame breath to get it.

Shadow Demons, but that's an entirely different tier of units. And flight is worse than 5 moves, flying, thrown or breath units can attack flying units.