New Civilization 5 Expansion - Brave New World

[Lord Parkin]

For at least a year after it came out, I played Civ3 solely on Chieftain. It was only after some time spent on the forums that I gathered the nerve to move up to Warlord and Regent. At the time even those seemed frighteningly difficult to me. (Bear in mind I was 14 and had never previously played a civ game.) It wasn't until several years had passed that I started to develop an interest in the mechanics of the game and competitive play beyond single player.

Looking back of course, it's easy to see that Chieftain is a sandbox designed to give you a sense of security - you can play pretty much any way you like and still win. But that's not to say it isn't fun... in fact that joy at collecting wonders of the world and seeing an empire you built grow and thrive is still the key thing I love about the game. And actually, the lack of that sense of empire-building satisfaction is what turned me away from Civ5 after only a couple of weeks. I felt that most wonders were unimpressive, growing cities and building things took too long, diplomacy was not fun and the AI were mean. Overall I couldn't get long-term enjoyment out of an experience where I didn't get the feeling that I was creating a glorious civilization. (That coupled with and the enormous lag and movement bottlenecks.) Perhaps it's improved in the years between though... maybe I'll give it a try again someday.

[Ichabod]

Looking back of course, it's easy to see that Chieftain is a sandbox designed to give you a sense of security - you can play pretty much any way you like and still win. But that's not to say it isn't fun... in fact that joy at collecting wonders of the world and seeing an empire you built grow and thrive is still the key thing I love about the game.

I'm trying to find the difference between this and your MP play, but I'm not seeing it...

[Lord Parkin]

Looking back of course, it's easy to see that Chieftain is a sandbox designed to give you a sense of security - you can play pretty much any way you like and still win. But that's not to say it isn't fun... in fact that joy at collecting wonders of the world and seeing an empire you built grow and thrive is still the key thing I love about the game.

I'm trying to find the difference between this and your MP play, but I'm not seeing it...

Now I'm somewhat competent at the military side of the game. That's pretty much it.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I think the review score and the overall reception in a review should reflect the average players enjoyment of the game... Not that you cannot bash on Civ5 at all, Sullla.

It's very interesting that you don't use games to cite an example of something that endures long after it's been released. But there are examples like street fighter 2 so ho-hum.

I think the answer about how well the "power gamers" think about Civ4 vs Civ5 is already answered. Civ5 has fewer threads/posts at CivFrantics than Civ4 and it's only going to get worse as time goes on. The community at CivFrantics was much larger at the start at Civ5 than Civ4. That said Civ5 is doing okay as Firaxis bothered to make the EXP packs. It's not possible to objectively evaluate what non-power gamers think about the Civ Series as they do not post what they feel about the game years after it's released.

How can you not beat Chieftain if you play the game a long time???? I can understand Civ5 EMP but Civ4 Chieftain?????? It's so easy: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314007 If this is true than Firaxis should make the most handholding tutorial ever and stick in in the game. The players need it. They could show how to win a Chieftain game step-by-step.

My point about Firaxis not caring about gameplay is silly right from the start. Even if most players are extremely weak there is still plenty of work they can do. For example not having useless wonders, polices and religious beliefs in the game that newbies can fall into by picking them. And adding that tutorial

I don't think MP would be successful in Civ6 but I won't argue that because I cannot prove it/provide very strong evidence for it. The MP in the other Civ games where severely hampered from the start. Civ2 and Civ1 were before online gaming got big. Civ3 did not ship with in MP and its only true expansion pack Conquests was shipped much later. Civ4 hand the awful gamespy hosting. Civ5 Civ Rev bombed hard from the start (Firaxis failed to make the planned Civ Rev 2). So they don't count as evidence about how well civ6 MP can be. And I cannot use other games because Civ is the only major TBS game, in recent times, to have MP.

[thestick]

Most games are about that 'feeling of power,' aren't they. The feeling that your 'effort' has a tangible reward...

[spellman]

Most games are about that 'feeling of power,' aren't they. The feeling that your 'effort' has a tangible reward...

Well, it depends. All games are about creating a sense of joy in the gamer. Whether via power fantasy (FPS), world/lore fantasy (RPGs), feeling accomplishment due to skill improvement (most Action games), feelings of powerful growth (RTS/TTS), joy of optimal solutions and problem solving (Strat, puzzle games), or even just beating your friends (PvP, leaderboards, etc). That is the key. Is the game delivering a positive response?

As we've proven in Nintendo Hard era and recently with the rise of Roguelikes, punishment can still give reward. It tastes so much sweeter when you do figure it out. But of course there has to be clear rules for why you failed, and a path for you to get better.

For Civ, there's a few competing methods for the sense of joy. Part of it, due to being strategy, is seeing your plans flow into each other. The one-more-turn syndrome is because you always have multiple plans running at the same time. Reach one more step towards a cool tech or another unit. But the reason you enjoy planning is the puzzle of optimal choices given your situation. It tickles our optimization part to figure out a creative solution for our self-set goals. And the growth of your nation is alluring. You start with a few units and grow over hundreds of turns into a giant powerhouse. And, more to the point, it is YOUR civilization. YOU built it and shaped it and chose its path. This attachment and investment is crucial. It's not some arbitrary army, that's the army you planned out and coordinated and are marching into the fray. Built from the cities you picked out.

So, why do we like to bash Civ 5? Mostly due to the fact we don't feel like it gives interesting choices at the strategic level. There's a lot of dead ends, a lot of down time, the unit micro is agonizingly annoying, etc. But some people don't even see that part. All they see is OMG MY CIV IS GROWING AND IT'S AWESOME. And frankly, that's OK.

[Rowain]

Out of the past three civ games, what was the best expansion pack? Play the World, Conquests, Warlords, Beyond the Sword, Gods and Kings, or Brave New World? Ignore the base game, judge it purely on what each Expansion brought to hte table in new content and game design.

I'm finding it difficult to say that Gods and Kings, and BNW, are actually bad compared to the shit that's been released before.

I'm not so fond of G&K but BNW is a really good expansion. I have a lot more fun with it than before. So far I have not found a 'I hate this sh*t' in BNW contrary to my look at BtS.

[Jowy]

Parkin, they changed the AI to be less mean in BNW. Not sure if I like that change to be honest, but maybe I should just up my difficulty. So far, albeit it's just two games and spectating a third one, I've only seen warmongers like Mongolia and The Hunns going for a domination victory. The other wars have been civs dogpiling on these warmongers once they get big.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I just found out the writers/artists/music great persons use a separate GP counter from other ones!!! I think the best way to use this fact is, after some time, build the artists guild and use the artists for free Golden ages. Unless you are going for a cultural victory.

[superjm]

The inability to quickly siphon gold out of the AI in the first 50+ turns by default is something I really need to get used to