[SPOILERS] Chevalier Mal Fet and Marcopolothefraud lead a Soviet Down Under

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Marco, quick note -

You said that your worker didn't have anything to do, so your'e walking him back. Did you plant the fishing boats next to the turtles? That will let your city grow a bit faster. Like Russia, you have very little food in the west, and your cities will be stuck on low populations - and unlike Russia, you don't have the superlavras to give you production without pop. I'd go ahead and spend a charge on the boats, just to get MBDTF growing. It took AGES to get to size 2, and that's just your 4th city.

Grow as long as you ahve good tiles to grow onto, which you do - you have the turtles, the gypsum, and two forests that can be lumbermilled. You'd probably like to hit at least size 4 or size 5 in that city. Then you can afford the campus and the Holy Site, which, while it won't be a +28/28 holy site (;_; still kind of crushed about that), it CAN be a +18/18 holy site, which is better than any of mine.

[marcopolothefraud]

With no eurekas likely, Marco should burn through Military Tactics, then can start following in my wake so he can get his mines upgraded, too. Our next target after Niter is, of course, Cartography and Square Rigging. We can't find Square Rigging without gunpowder (never happen), so Cartography will have to be the go-to tech. My harbors will come in just as soon as I can build them, even at the expense of ships. 

Ah - remember I still have Aryabhata and his eurekas to trigger. If I burn him at the right moment, I can get the Military Tactics eureka and the Buttress eureka out of him.

My worker walks back to MBDTF - not to improve the fish, but to harvest some cattle in preparation for a holy site. That short-term food growth would then allow me to work a grassland mine or a lumber mill.

Ljubljana/Woden finally declares war on us. I'm a little shocked by this, because they don't have an invasion force at our borders, so I don't know why they would signal their intentions so early. Still, we've got to mobilize. Illmatic and College Dropout will both start Quadrireme production next turn.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 87

I'm back, after an overnight trip down to Shiloh National Battlefield. I'd never been before; good trip. Absolutely perfect day. 




That's, wow, a huge pile of notifications to sort through. Let's see, we've got the dust storm in Australia ending, China finishing another wonder (Jebel Barkar, we'll see how many cities it hits next turn), my archers available for promotion, Magnus establishing in Shikishima, and fully 6 associated with ljubljana's long-expected DoW. I wonder why he waited 3 turns - he was eligible back on 85. Anyway, untangling the mess, I regained suzerainty of Mohenjo-Daro, which declared war on Woden and ljubljana (did I complete a quest on the interturn? I can't remember what they wanted), before ljubljana regained suzerainty and MD switched sides, declaring war on ljubljana and me. 

Starting in 3 turns and then every 2 turns or so after that, though, I'll start sliding quadriremes down the slipways and into the sea. Knyaz Suvurov, Borodino, Oslyabya, and Mikasa will all become shipbuilding cities until my power is unassailable. I've also got fully 6 galleys to concentrate near Shikishima, which can delay things near that city for a good long while.

Accordingly, Marco, I'm not sure we need you to jump into military builds yet, beyond perhaps an archer. More on that later.

Really, though, this is a huge blessing for us. Our team's Achilles heel at the moment is Australia's lagging growth and production; Dido has kindly solved one of those problems for us for the next ten turns. Australia's cities should be on par with Russians or even better now in most cases, so until turn 97 we should exploit that as best we can. Again, more later, but I would take your bonus production, marco, and plow it into more growth and production to try to get your reactor self-sustaining. 

Sissoi Veliki comes online, and I start a granary for the precious, precious food. It can build the Shrine and Temple while it grows to size 4, then churn out a builder to chop out the campus.




I'm up to 6 lavras finished, out of 10 cities. Next turn 2 more will finish and I will be at 8 out of 10 cities with their lavra up. The only exception will be Navarin, which should take about 6 more turns once I manage to grow it to size 2 so it can get started with decent production on it. Faith income has reached 111 and will climb to 133 next turn, and that's with only two shrines finished in the whole damned empire. Each lavra can add an addition +10 faith if I take the time to build them out, so I could hit 200 faith per turn within 30 turns fairly easily.

So, yeah, I think Grandmaster's Chapel -> Pray for an army is the way to go.

I start to recall my explorers, but find two natural wonders, sub's capital, and a city-state:










Antananarivo is a nice synergy with lavras - it'd be worth 5 culture immediately and that would grow through the ages as I get more great people. I think once I have an envoy I'll drop it and move Amani here, it might be worth fighting for suzerainty here instead of Yerevan. 

Oslyabya will come online next turn and be able to produce 5-turn quadriremes:




I will aim to get 4 out of here, and a harbor. 

Overview, now in two screenshots:

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

So marco, here's my thoughts on whether you should invest in military units, civilian units, or districts:

Right now, it feels like the main difference between Australia and Russia is in our production capacity. With my supercharged districts, I'm pulling in many more hammers overall than Australia (I also think I'm prioritizing food more than you, too, which is starting to show). But the 10 turns of x2 production, thanks to Carthage, give you a chance to catch up. So, here are the options as I see them:

1)Build military units. This can be done quickly and will provide security in case Carthage/Norway invade in the west, or if they overwhelm my fleet. It makes us look spikier, deterring attacks, and makes use of Australia's pantheon. 

However, if they don't attack Australia, then this is largely wasted production. Australia will still lag in gold generation, food, and production capacity, and as the game goes on the gap will widen with the other players. Long-term, this feels like a losing play. 

2)Build civilian units. A few rapid settlers and builders can be gotten out quickly from most cities. The builders can start dropping mills and mines and farms to improve Australia's weaknesses, the settlers can fill out Australia's portion of the island and get new build and growth queues started. 

The downside is this leaves Australia vulnerable in the near-term and dependent upon Russia for protection. It also might make our team look more threatening and like a good target. 

Personally, this is the way I lean. I think this is the best use of Australia's boost and will really help us close the gap with the other teams.

3)Build more districts. Can extend Australia's science lead or bring more holy sites online. However, it increases costs and doesn't improve growth.

Right now, I COULD be persuaded that building some districts or buildings is a good idea, but ONLY if those districts or buildings give food/production. Australia can't really afford more infrastructure at the moment, BUT if you could, for example, use MBDTF's x2 production quickly crank out the holy site at size 4, then you'd instnatly be able to swap in Scripture and have +18 production at that city (+36 next time some fool attacks!). That's a 3 turn quadrireme with the production card and will more or less make that city the best one in either empire. Same for other holy sites - get them up and then get Scripture slotted and your production problems are solved. 

Now, if you stay in builder mode, doesn't that make us more vulnerable? yes, it does, but I think it's a manageable risk and I think the reward is worth it.

First, assume Russia will provide security for both empires while Australia builds. I have the production capacity and my shipyards are rapidly expanding - I will have 4 online next turn, with a 5th and 6th being added as Navarin and Petropavlosk both grow to size 4. The main approaches to our cities, except the far west, are near my fleet anchorage, and I am aggressively patrolling. There are two risks: 

1)Woden/ljubljana attack me in concert and try to overwhelm my fleet.

2)Woden/ljubljana attack from the west. 

In scenario (1) the Australian fleet wouldn't be much help anyway - the Aussies would buy us a few extra turns, but without production you couldn't replace losses. It would tip the balance of a narrow battle, but the odds of that are small.

It'd be more useful in the case of scenario (2), but that seems unlikely to me - they would have to sail past Kaiser and Archduke's island to get here, and I doubt that either would be happy with that. Not in a no-diplo game, there's no way to signal "we are sailing around you to attack the other team" and not "we are trying to find an undefended city of yours to plunder." 

So, bottom line: I'd go for civilian units. Get at least a settler for Oasis, Turtles, Desert Folklore, and Mmmm, FOod. You ahve one on the map, so I'd get 3 more done. That will take you to 8 cities, and we can look at overseas expansion as a next step. For builders, you can start improving Australia's lands, and where you have the pop, (just in the College Dropout), you could get a Work Ethic site up. I'd run Colonization until the 4 settlers are done or close to it, then swap into Scripture/Natural Philosophy like Russia. That'd be +9 production at the moment in two cities, growing as you finished holy sites at MBDTF and Ilmatic. 

Ah - remember I still have Aryabhata and his eurekas to trigger. If I burn him at the right moment, I can get the Military Tactics eureka and the Buttress eureka out of him.

Right, of course! Good call. We should wait to activate him until I've passed on at least Castles to you. If you could squeeze in a single archer, too, and I pass the gold for a slinger upgrade, you could also get the eureka for machinery  out of teh way, and we can either wait until I research and pass on Apprenticeship or you can build the mines yourself. Once we have Apprenticeship and Machinery in, and Russia has passed on ME/Castles, I think we should activate him.

[marcopolothefraud]

Turn 88

Thanks for the analysis, Chevalier. I thought about it, and I think I'll ultimately take your advice. Drama and Poetry completes, so here's my new policies:


I'm definitely going to build at least another Archer and another Quadrireme, and that probably merits getting off Conscription.
Down south, my exploring galley finds what seem to be city ruins:



I wonder who destroyed it? It couldn't have been one of the players, because we would've seen it on the Score Tracker that CMF is keeping. Hmm...maybe it's nothing.



Final overview of my cities.

- Illmatic just finished the Ancestral Hall, giving me another governor title. My gut instinct is to put it into Magnus, getting me no population-loss from settlers...but it's a short-term boost that won't get me many uses. I could also put it into Liang, for Fisheries, or Reyna because of her powerful promotions down the line. As I enter the Medieval Era civics-wise, I'm going to get less governor titles than before, so I need to plan them out better.

- The Blueprint will make a settler after that archer. I'm thinking of chopping that 2/2 forested hill and putting a mine there.

- The College Dropout settler is heading towards MM...FOOD, though I don't really like that city site. (I'd much rather put it on Sakhalin and give it to CMF. It seems to have much better yields. Can I use my Builders in allied territory? I'm going to have to check that over the weekend.)

- The MBDTF settler is heading towards "Turtleville", the cape that juts off the eastern edge of my continent. I'd like to found a city in the southeast continent too, but I need to be careful not to overstretch myself.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 88

Start the turn to see Vilnius taking potshots at my galley as I try to squeeze past:




I've still seen no signs of a major Norse or Punic concentration against us. I am diverting most of my galleys to that large island between Shikishima and Vilnius to save my galley from any pursuers. Then I'll keep a picket here and move most of the fleet to the Shikishima anchorage. 

Oslyabya comes online. This size 1 city can crank out quadriremes in 5 turns:




I immediately begin to do so. There's a bevy of barbs running around Yerevan and it'll be good to pick up the Naval Tradition inspiration. I also need to make sure that none of them drift north to harass MBDTF or Turtleville, once it founds. 

Just beyond Yerevan is another potential tundra settle:




Presently unnamed, it would have a 4 food city-center, iron and amber mines, and a +6 lavra. That will make it a useful little shipyard. It's not a high priority to settle, obviously, but if I can spare the faith from other endeavors I'd like to get a settler here. I'd settle, chop the forest on the amber into a lavra, then plant the two mines iwth my remaining charges to build out hte initial lavra. Then grow to size 4 and get a harbor down and then more or less build ships constantly. 

Abroad, marco and I's galleys should meet up within 5 turns:




I might get intercepted and destroyed by Punic or Viking warships, but as long as marco's galley gets through, we should each get a crucial +3 era score that will be key for securing a golden age. 

Russia is presently executing previously laid plans, so let's look at the situation in Australia:




The College Dropout has its 4 Holy Site down and is converted. At present, Work Ethic could add +9/+18 to Oz. Marco, I think your notion to chop the cows at Twisted Fantasy is a good one. In fact, I would chop the cows and place the Holy Site on that same turn - even pause work on the campus long enough to get the site finished, while you have x2 production. Then, get a shrine out of The Blueprint and buy a missionary at 150 faith. As soon as you get MBDTF converted, that single city would be getting +9/+18, so as soon as you grab scripture you'd be netting +36 production across 3 cities. That beats the hell out of urban planning's +4 at the moment. 

As for Ilmatic, I feel like you'll need the Harbor sooner rather than later. I also think Mmm, Food and Turtleville would also need to begin with Harbors. The Australian gold situation si truly dire and harbors solve a couple of problems for us. Then if Ilmatic ever reaches size 10 (possible, with a harbor and lighthouse and possibly some farms), you can get the last holy site and the capital will reach its mature state. Further south, The Blueprint could supply an IZ that would hit the entire core area. 

Overview. My last pop growth at Borodino pushed the city into unhappiness and I'm losing a bit of yields as a result. -10% at the capital is painful since it's the center of so much research and industry! I've got pearls, amber, coffee, and, soon, ivory all available to connect so it should be a temporary issue. 






Abroad, Kaiser and Roland finished Military Engineering. Sub is up to 7 cities, 3 on Sakhilin, 3 on his home continent, and 1 conquered city state. Ljubljana is at 7 as well, 3 conquered city-states and 4 self-founded. Woden is at 6, 4 founded and 2 conquered, Archduke at 7, I think 2 conquered and 5 self-founded, Kaiser is lagging a bit at 5, no conquests, and Roland also at 5 with no conquests. Australia brings up the rear at 4 but has multiple settlers on the map or in production, just in time. 

Ljubljana also finished Naval Tradition a turn or two ago and slotted the double adjacency for hsi harbors, adding 12 science in one turn. he's a long way from a Golden Age still, though, so unless he gets hopping he's gonna lose all that science and more in 12 turns when the era flips.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 89

I start the turn with the news that, probably due to a new tile acquisition and my orders to concentrate on production, Imperator Aleksandr has started to starve itself:




I rejigger things so that we will instead grow in 5 turns, borrowing the sugar from the capital, which can no longer make good use of the food since it's at the housing cap until I finish either Monarchy or a Lighthouse. The settler will emerge on turn 91, since I'm faith-purchasing a settler in the north this turn. 

The war notification is that Vilnius is still taking potshots:




There's also a promoted longship skulking nearby. I worry about more in the fog (although it looks as if the galley war is starting to heat up between the four belligerents), so I scuttle over to the other island and join up with my reinforcements: 




I should be able to withdraw to Shikishima without too much trouble, but I intend to keep one galley here as a picket. That way, I can spot incoming offensives and have time to react. Other galleys make their way towards the rendezvous, while my Magellan continues to press on to the west, so far unmolested. That brings us to some new production queues. 

Borodino is able to start on a harbor, due in 4 turns:




It will be good for 4 gold and 3 era score. I'm not sure if I can afford to crnak out a lighthouse, too - only 4 turns - or if I should instead get out a quad quickly. I'd like to get the lighthouse before going over to quadrireme production, since that would net me more food, more housing, and more experience for the ships, plus one of my tundra cities could then host a trader. My own trader sets up shop in Navarin, to speed up my final lavra. 

Sebastopol has finished its monument, so with the choice of shrine, walls, granary, or some kind of unit I opt for a granary to hurry to size 4. 

With faith nearing 150 per turn, I buy the next settler at Shikishima:




We should be able to afford another at 450 faith, which we will hit in, ah, 3 turns, then another at 490, which we'll hit in 7 turns from this moment. So, I think I can get 3 more settlers out of Shikishima before the era change, settling Novaya Zemyla, before transferring to either Mikasa or Oslyabya. 

This settler will head for Vladimir Monomakh:




I should found the city on 93. 

Vladimir is my first 'conventional' city founded with no access to tundra and no real lavra. It is intended mostly as a shield for Shikishima Strait, to keep Indonesia from getting hostile units on that shore opposite the city. It'll also add ivory to the empire, and a harbor will go in right away due south of Shikishima's harbor, for future shipbuilding. At size 4, I'll throw down an encampment to the north, and this will become a base for faith-purchasing units in the future for our offensive in Sakhilin. 

Here's the reason for Vladimir Monomakh:




Suboptimal has claimed most of the island for himself, using his own monumentality settlers. However, watching the score, I don't believe he's completed a government plaza nor an ancestral hall, so he's having to make do with population growth and hand-built settlers. Unlike me, sub prefers to spread his cities out wide, while I pack 'em in as tightly as I can fit, under the logic that the more tiles and citizens you can work, the better. Oddly, though, he's insisted on settling every city at least one tile inland, even with plenty of fresh water available. For example, Graceland is one tile AWAY from a tiny bay that would grant sub free faith and make Graceland a shipbuilding city. Under African Skies was founded one tile northeast of where it would be coastal and on freshwater, and 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover is likewise. 

I'll be honest, I sometimes see players have this defensive mentality in games - Rowain did it in PBEM12, and Marco has sometimes leaned that way before I talk him out of it - and I don't get it. The game is won and lost via control of the sea. If you lose control of the sea, you still lose the game even if you've made your cities slightly more inconvenient to capture! Oh no guess I have to sail a land unit up here to occupy the cities.   Who's more inconvenienced by these placements - sub's potential attackers, who will have to delay a few turns to capture the cities, or sub himself, who can't use the cities to fight for control of the sea at all? 

My size 1 tundra city of Oslyabya is doing more to help my empire win the game right now than all 3 of these goobers. 

No, so far, I settle on the coast whenever I can, with a few exceptions - Navarin and Petropavlosk, because they had good tiles available, but they'll get harbors right away - and Vladimir will be inland, but will place a harbor on day 1. Every single build queue is a few more ships in the water later. If I lose control of the sea, the game is over for me, regardless of whether or not my cities fall right away. 

I'm irritated enough at these placements that I can't see myself capturing the cities unless they're mature with harbors - if not, I'll put them to the torch and resettle in more sensible spots. 

Kaiser and Archduke will take Mohenjo-Daro next turn:




That'll be another liberation target iwth Frigates. 

Marco, what I'm envisioning for these 5 city-states I've spotted is for Russia to pound them down to nothing, but have an Ozzie ship strike the final blow. That will be x2 production for 10 turns, each time we do it. And then we can eat the city-state afterwards if we want with no occupation penalty. 

I also spot that Kaiser is building infrastructure - a harbor and the Ancestral Hall - in his 2 main cities:




Miln and Tibbet's Brook are his equivalent of my own Borodino and Knyaz Suvurov, so these are important builds. It's a small piece of evidence that the galley war isn't especially hot - or that Kaiser is desperate not to fall behind. Archduke has the highest military score in the game so I suppose he thought they could spare the Japanese fleet, especially if we assume 3-4 ships will be freed up by the fall of Mohenjo-Daro to sail east to the front. 

Four players have finished medieval civics:




The three players in a naval war have all finished Naval Tradition, I assume, while China has completed Divine Right, hard-researching through the temple requirement, I'd imagine. That's a bit disappointing, since I'd've liked the era score for being first to Monarchy, but I should be okay without it, and in the meantime it means Roland burned a big chunk of his culture lead. Even with Choral Music he's barely leading in culture - only 4 points ahead of me, in 3rd place. I have to think I'm getting more value out of Fine Weather & High Waves than China is out of Rangers. 

Sub is using his own precious great prophet as a superscout:




Obviously, scouting me and Marco is ominous. I'll need to pull back to Shikishima entirely soon and mass forces there to try to bog down jongs as long as I can. If I can keep my 9 mainland cities safe long enough to build a frigate or two, I think I can hold, and then gradually reclaim the center because I'll be able to outproduce suboptimal. I'm expecting half a dozen jongs in the first wave, with another one added every 10 turns or so - I think I can swarm enough galleys and quads (5 turns per city, with ~6 cities contributing although Oslyabya is poorly situated) to stop him if he comes after us. 

We'll see, anyway! 

Marco, it's been 9 turns since we friended Kaiser and Archduke, so I sent Roland a friendship request this turn. If he accepts, they will be unable to declare a joint war along with the Central Powers, but would have to wait 10 turns for their own friendship to expire - that buys AUstralia another 10 turns of x2 production. I want to keep these rolling DoFs going so it's hard for the others to coordinate against us. 

If they accept, bully! We can build up and conserve our forces for a strike timed with Frigates. I'll have thoughts on where that's aimed later.

Eastern overview:




Western overview:




Mikasa's conversion is agonizingly slow. I think I want to take one apostle after the era flip and pick up Religious Colonization. Fully evangelizing would cost about 2 settlers and might be worth it, I think. The sooner the better since it'll save on missionary costs.

[williams482]

Considering your points about cities settled one tile off the coast, why is Vladimir not settled 1SE where it could be on fresh water and still coastal?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Vladimir is one of the few exceptions.

No, so far, I settle on the coast whenever I can, with a few exceptions - Navarin and Petropavlosk, because they had good tiles available, but they'll get harbors right away - and Vladimir will be inland, but will place a harbor on day 1. Every single build queue is a few more ships in the water later. If I lose control of the sea, the game is over for me, regardless of whether or not my cities fall right away.

Its first district will be a harbor, so it can contribute eventually, but the city will take some time to grow into usefulness. However, I've got two key differences from the Indonesian cities: sub has placed Campuses and Holy Sites at those cities, meaning he'll need them to reach size 4 before he can even think about a harbor, and second, I have water tiles already available to place a harbor.

Why not just build directly on the coast? Because settling 1 SW is obviously out since it invalidates some coastal spots on the other island. Settling 1 SE would push the stone to the 2nd ring, the ivory to the 3rd, and make it totally impossible to share the rice farm with Shikishima. So, I feel Vladimir's tiles are stronger, whereas a coastal settle doesn't really pick up anything at sea - there's not even, like, fish. Finally, I am prioritizing tiles and inland grasp here - I want to exert influence into the interior of the island, and the inland spot is better for that. It'll get an Encampment at Size 4, both for the discount, for a bit of defense, and to start earning GG points. When the time comes, I'll be able to pray for two units a turn there and start lunging north.

Although you didn't ask: Navarin is one tile inland from the sea I think because I hate settling on hills, but honestly as I look at it the tundra hill 1SW might have been a better spot, since it'd lend a bit of extra adjacency to the lavra, but at the time I was thinking "I want to plant a mine on that hill" - and I still do! It'll get a harbor at size 4, which it should reach in a few turns, just in time to be properly set up for shipbuilding.

Petropavlosk is where it is so I could maximize the amount of tundra forests it has, which are very productive for Russia, as well as making its amber and campus locations second ring instead of third. The downside is I have to wait until 4 or 7 for the harbor, so it will be a late bloomer.

However, in no circumstances did I settle my cities to make them more defensible or anything like that - it was pretty much always to maximize yields and tile usage. My navy will be my defense, or I will lose.

[marcopolothefraud]

Turn 89

Marco, what I'm envisioning for these 5 city-states I've spotted is for Russia to pound them down to nothing, but have an Ozzie ship strike the final blow. That will be x2 production for 10 turns, each time we do it. And then we can eat the city-state afterwards if we want with no occupation penalty. 

Ooh, that's a fantastic idea. If we're taking them with Frigates, I think that means I need to make a lot more Caravels, then.

Sub is using his own precious great prophet as a superscout:




Obviously, scouting me and Marco is ominous. I'll need to pull back to Shikishima entirely soon and mass forces there to try to bog down jongs as long as I can. If I can keep my 9 mainland cities safe long enough to build a frigate or two, I think I can hold, and then gradually reclaim the center because I'll be able to outproduce suboptimal. I'm expecting half a dozen jongs in the first wave, with another one added every 10 turns or so - I think I can swarm enough galleys and quads (5 turns per city, with ~6 cities contributing although Oslyabya is poorly situated) to stop him if he comes after us. 

We'll see, anyway! 

Marco, it's been 9 turns since we friended Kaiser and Archduke, so I sent Roland a friendship request this turn. If he accepts, they will be unable to declare a joint war along with the Central Powers, but would have to wait 10 turns for their own friendship to expire - that buys Australia another 10 turns of x2 production. I want to keep these rolling DoFs going so it's hard for the others to coordinate against us. 

I have a slinger at College Dropout. Should I maneuver it to try and block that Great Prophet, or should I keep it in the city and protect it from Viking incursion? (My instinct tells me Woden's not going to go for a target so far into our heartland...but it could protect from barbarians or escort that settler...)

I'm not following your logic of the "another 10 turns of x2 production" here. Who exactly will declare on me and give me that extra production?