[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Mardoc]

I think I know what happened.
The Hyborem AI will gladly send its initial settlers out into the wilderness unescorted.
(They have 4 movement, so can't be properly escorted anyway.)
I'm willing to bet all the money in my pockets that they were both eaten by Hidden Nationality barbarian animals in between turns.

If that's true - and it's quite plausible, given the sheer population of animals/giants at this time, it prompts a verrry interesting question.

Can I kill Hyborem by piling enough warriors into Deinos that he can't take a city in turn 1? What exactly does 'on strike' mean? Is this a loophole that might let me live without running?

According to civfanatics, his unit support here at Emperor is 7 + 0.24*population, which with 0 pop becomes straight-up 7. I believe he has more units than 7, 0 gold, and negative income. If he has no settlers, he can't fix that, either, until he takes a city or disbands some units. If he's AI, and at peace with me - he won't do either, will he? What happens then?

[Azoth]

Hmm. I thought that unit support costs did not apply until you built your first city.
Clearly, that rule must have been changed at some point;
the screenshot Selrahc posted in the tech thread shows that Hyborem is paying 9 gold/turn.

That said, I don't think losing your starting settlers results in automatic elimination.
And I think only one unit is disbanded per turn when your units first go on strike.
So Selrahc may lose a Mane in between turns, but he should be able to capture Deinos next turn.
(He has Hyborem, two Mobility Champions, and two Mobility Longbowmen.)
Deinos will become his capital city, and he can go from there.

I know they are discussing possible fixes in the Tech Thread.
Frankly, I don't think Selrahc should be allowed to replay Hyborem's first turn, and found cities where he pleases.
One of the risks of switching to Hyborem is the uncertainty of the spawn location and the first turn under AI control.
Granted, this is an extreme example; but the Hyborem players in PBEM I and III (Bob and Dantski, I think?) didn't have the option to undo poor AI choices.
Of course, I'm biased.

[Mardoc]

Frankly, I don't think Selrahc should be allowed to replay Hyborem's first turn, and found cities where he pleases.
One of the risks of switching to Hyborem is the uncertainty of the spawn location and the first turn under AI control.
Granted, this is an extreme example; but the Hyborem players in PBEM I and III (Bob and Dantski, I think?) didn't have the option to undo poor AI choices.
Of course, I'm biased.

I feel the same way, for the most part. It's ok for my game to be ended on the luck of where Hyborem spawns, but it's not ok for Selrahc to be crippled/damaged based on the luck of where Hyborem spawns? But I know I'm biased too, so I didn't want to argue that in the tech thread.

And sure, Hyborem's only being this stupid because the map is poor and hence no good sites + lots of animals left. Conversely, though - if the map weren't poor, then we'd have been able to expand a lot more by now and Hyborem wouldn't be an existential threat.

Which argument mostly only applies if losing his settlers doesn't lose the game instantly. That would just be silly. Apparently we'll find out, as Selrahc's decided to send the turn forward anyway.

Granted, he played well to get to Hyborem this early without anyone calling him on that (I blame Sciz). But that's also partly a consequence of the map being poor, that people couldn't expand quickly and touch borders. Heck, if it weren't for that Mistform and the other nasty animals, I would likely have been able to go raid the Lanun myself.

[Mardoc]

It's ok for my game to be ended on the luck of where Hyborem spawns, but it's not ok for Selrahc to be crippled/damaged based on the luck of where Hyborem spawns?

In fact, the more I dwell on the subject, the more I wonder about this. Non-dedlurkers, if there are any around - am I just being sour grapes about this?

How's this different than any other piece of luck in the game that goes against you? Like, say, a Mistform that decides to terrorize Jkaen for 50 turns, or a Great Scientist from a lair at the start of Uberfish's game?

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Sour grapes. The issue is less luck, but more a complete inability to stop yourself from making a bad decision (like sending unescorted settlers next to a Griffon).

[Gaspar]

In fact, the more I dwell on the subject, the more I wonder about this. Non-dedlurkers, if there are any around - am I just being sour grapes about this?

How's this different than any other piece of luck in the game that goes against you? Like, say, a Mistform that decides to terrorize Jkaen for 50 turns, or a Great Scientist from a lair at the start of Uberfish's game?

I don't think its sour grapes at all. There's a reason you don't get Hyborem as a starting Civ option - its meant to involve luck of the draw, not least of which is because the earlier you get him in the game, the more OP his starting units are. Sure, the shitty luck here is a consequence of this ridiculous map, but at the same time, everyone has had some shitty luck as a consequence of this ridiculous map. Oddly enough, I think Selrahc's original Civ is the next best placed to survive on this map, next to Hyborem.

Regardless, you can't win. If you complain about it any way you'll just get branded an inveterate whiner. And I suppose being completely unbiased, we've all seen the Kurios before, but nobody's really ever seen the Infernals in anything other than a desperation move.

So yeah, I understand how you're feeling, but you're pretty much stuck with the situation. Take your beating, give em as much hell as possible on the way out, and then get ready for the next game. So it goes.

[Square Leg]

I don't think its sour grapes at all. There's a reason you don't get Hyborem as a starting Civ option - its meant to involve luck of the draw, not least of which is because the earlier you get him in the game, the more OP his starting units are. Sure, the shitty luck here is a consequence of this ridiculous map, but at the same time, everyone has had some shitty luck as a consequence of this ridiculous map. Oddly enough, I think Selrahc's original Civ is the next best placed to survive on this map, next to Hyborem.

Regardless, you can't win. If you complain about it any way you'll just get branded an inveterate whiner. And I suppose being completely unbiased, we've all seen the Kurios before, but nobody's really ever seen the Infernals in anything other than a desperation move.

So yeah, I understand how you're feeling, but you're pretty much stuck with the situation. Take your beating, give em as much hell as possible on the way out, and then get ready for the next game. So it goes.

Well said.

FFH is a game built on luck and overpowered stuff. You get to use it sometimes (can't think where off the top of my head?! ) and you get yyour ass handed to you by it other times...

Have fun and enjoy the experience! :neenernee

[Mardoc]

Thanks for the comments. I think the piece that hurts the most about this is the moment of hope of reprieve. It's like I was playing Russian Roulette, and heard the click...and then Selrahc said 'oh, I see what's wrong', takes it from me and messes with it, and then hands it back and says 'here, try it again'.

If it were just Hyborem spawning, I'd whine a bit and die. It's this period of Hyborem spawned - but you might survive - no, never mind - that's what's frustrating.

[Azoth]

As for me, I don't object to Hyborem spawning next to our city.
That's just bad luck; and we were discussing doing the same thing to another player.
I object to the suggestion that Selrahc should replay Hyborem's first turn, and avoid his share of bad luck in losing those Settlers.

But it looks like Selrahc has decided to play on.
Kudos to him.
He'll probably capture Deinos on his first turn, make that his palace, and be fine.

[Mardoc]

No comprendo:



Why not keep it? It's not like anyone's going to try to take it from you.

Oh well.

I tried this, figuring I could Sprint away afterwards.



And hit the 30% death chance. Well, just going to die I suppose.

Both Ichabod and Dantski have offered me a city, but really I don't think I'd enjoy trying to claw back to relevance without my towns, so I turned them down. Ichabod will send me copper soon enough, and I'll defy Hyborem, and then I'll die.