[PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV

[Tarkeel]

That was a very nice update Thrawn.

[Donovan Zoi]

Hey everyone, sorry for the delay in posting an update here.  As much as I'd like to reply to everyone line by line, I'm going to give you a brief overview of my thoughts and then finish the turn this afternoon.  Just know that I've read every word from each of you that posted and am using them to sway or support my decisions in regards to our next moves.

Big Picture

I've decided to research Machinery next, primarily for the XBows.  It's a great unit to have as the Melee era approaches its apex, and we'll use the promos mostly for Guerrilla II unless a vulnerable plains city merits Garrison II.  The Aesthetics path will be essential in due time once we have the proper muscle to promote, especially with CS and Macemen available when plausible.

By projecting a solid defense, I think we can then concentrate on domestic issues with less trepidation and let the others make our war decisions for us with their own wardecs.

I was considering putting wealth in Reticuli to hasten the tech research, as binary is pretty lopsided at 100% to 0% (1xx beakers v. 23g).  But I'm not sure we want to skimp on the Cat production, so I'll look for other ways to boost wealth if it makes sense.

thrawn, do you know where Gav's stack was last seen?  Scouting is going to be imperative to forecast any sudden moves, but we can ease the tension a bit once we have XBows.


Cities

Whynil - went to full production to get a Galley in 3.  I like the idea of getting at least one of the barb cities.  Zhou is definitely the safer bet long term, but Shady is the real prize that may be worth fighting for.  And I agree with Xist on letting SD have it if he prevails.

Fierias- gets the food from Whynil and I’ve decided to use the two chops to 1-whip a Settler for the mountain Deer site just north of it (2 great food tiles and Copper IIRC).

Mentar - my vote for the Moai site.  I’ve borrowed food from Morrig to get 9+ food and possibly get to Size 5 (from 3) in 2 turns.  Then I may grow into anger to whip the Forge and then let this poor city grow naturally for awhile.  Once peaked, there’s a lot of great commerce to be had and we can then look at boosting Willow.

Sssla - I really like the 3-food Cow site NE of it, but I’ll have to figure out when.  It’s ours for the taking.


Diplo

I’m glad that we have OB with everyone but Magic.  I think I’m gonna send a box of Fish to those 3 and see what comes back.  Then we’ll be vigilant at Magic’s borders, with only 4 turns left of peace.  He’s already got Feudalism and Vassalage, thanks to his Marathon wonder haul so taking him out entirely will be no easy task.

SD and Dreylin look to be the civs less equipped to make huge gains on us based on geography so Gavagai is obviously the one to watch.


Lots more to come!  Let me know your thoughts.

[williams482]

What is your plan for Willow if Mentar is working the water-based food with Moai? Keep it mostly stagnant at low pop working production tiles, or feed it fish and live with the Moai city not working the best water tiles in it's range?

[xist10]

Live with the Moai city not working the best water tiles in it's range?

Fish is only one water tile. I see absolute no problem to give up the fish if this means, another city can grow.


I would try to check the diplo with MS too.
I think, the coalition wanted only to slow down MS and reached it's goal - new frontrunner is Gavagai ?!



Whats the effective research rate (+/- 0) and how big is the gold change at 100%/0% ?

[Donovan Zoi]

What is your plan for Willow if Mentar is working the water-based food with Moai? Keep it mostly stagnant at low pop working production tiles, or feed it fish and live with the Moai city not working the best water tiles in it's range?

Good question and it remains to be seen.  It's unfortunate that these two are boxed together, but Mentar is definitely the stronger of the two.  Willow has some great grassland for Cottages, so I think I'll have it take one seafood from Mentar (once it caps out) while trading off the other with Morrig as needed to allow it to capture those tiles.  But I think it will always remain in Mentar's shadow, especially if Moai prevails there.

A Palace jump may be considered at some point, but Willow is still a decent central location for maintenance reasons.  It definitely eliminates the sometimes tough decision between Vassalage and Bureau when the time comes, at least for now.

[Donovan Zoi]

Sorry Xist, I missed your comments in the crosspost.

I would try to check the diplo with MS too.
I think, the coalition wanted only to slow down MS and reached it's goal - new frontrunner is Gavagai ?!

Noted, and I can definitely do that.  Especially since I think Magic is still waiting for me to play before he goes.  He has justifiable meta trust issues with me after PB74 so an olive branch here may lessen previous tensions.

The only drawback in Fishing everybody is that it will look bad diplomatically if we have a chance to grab spoils from a nearby war.  But we’d also be in good position to bide our time and mop up somewhere if things let lopsided.

Whats the effective research rate (+/- 0) and how big is the gold change at 100%/0% ?

We were getting Machinery in 5 at 90 and 100% before I suspended a Gold tile to grow Mentar.  Gpt was -163 at 100% and +23 at 0.  I have no problem with 90% if it saves up some gold to get a very important tech on time.

[thrawn]

The stack was in his NW as he razed two Magic cities there and then he made peace but not open borders so I'd guess it's still in his north unless it's made it's way to us but it doesn't seem so.

Everyone has been avoiding OB with Magic not to boost his gnp so keep in mind that there will be a diplomatic shake if you do and I'd definitely advise against it.

You don't need a galley in Whynil to start shipping the swords - the galley east from Yarrow can use the forts as canal and cross into that sea.

One reason for moai in Sssla was that you can lose the southern gold when Sulu pops 3rd ring so it's good to have more culture to also pop 3rd ring asap.

I wouldn't postpone theo+vassalage because barrage 3 is huge on cats and you can also get something no one else can - navigation galleys and triremes or simply C2 triremes. You can also get C2+CR1 amphibious swords that strike from the fog and owning the coasts will be a huge tactical advantage. Dogs are a great melee counter even to maces and especially after a cat strike.

[xist10]

Uff, 1:7 is bad. So time to built courthouses and markets ?
From the overview, worker management seems to be okay, and I spot "enough" worked cottages.

[williams482]

I'm not sure I love Machinery research given the current state of the economy and our UU's strength against melee attackers. XBs aren't a great matchup for horchers, probably our most likely upcoming threat. Priesthood for a temple to get on track for our shrine (ideally paired with Moai in whichever city you choose), Aestetics for Schwedegon to save us the trouble of researching some dead end techs, and Literature for Heroic Epic in Reticuli to crank out cats (or whatever) at double speed, all seem like more valuable targets to me. Those also move you in the right direction for Hereditary Rule and Vassalage, plus longbows (which I'd rate as more useful than XBs here).

I've been a fan of the deercopper city site pretty much the whole game (we considered using that site to flip Mentar from the barbs, but ultimately went with the Willow location instead), but I am concerned about the econ hit from settling it right now. It's a pure production site in a safe backline location, and the spin up time before it can properly cover costs by building wealth would be coming at a very bad time. The extra maintenance would effectively halve our tech rate right now? That's concerning.

[xist10]

I like machinery in perspective of the follow up tech.
Civil Service for mace men and/or engineering.
Engineering should be shut down Horcher threats ?
I think you can't capture a city with castles and pikes with horchers.
And machinery is on the way to guilds.

I agree, crossbows are not that good and as such, there is no real immediate effect, but I don't think machinery as next research is bad.