[SPOILER] - Suboptimal finds trees, still seeks forest

[suboptimal]

Turn 85

Only notification is a volcano over in Australia blowing its top. Take the opportunity of quiet to do some checking on the timing of “the plan”. In order for that to work (and keep Natural Philosophy slotted) I’ll need to take out either Maneuver or Equestrian Orders to slot Colonization. Looks like a double change – Equestrian Orders and Maneuver out, Colonization and Agoge in. Defensive Tactics will get two more turns into it, then I’ll put one turn into Theology (it’s the only one I can complete), then complete that civic and work on another settler out of Mashed. With that thinking out of the way the builder and settler make their moves (three turns until the Volcano Iron city is founded and the next settler at Mashed is complete) and it’s time to check out the operating theaters…at Art of War:




Hmmm...fortify there or cross the river? For now I’ll fortify there. At a minimum it’ll get me a turn of healing. Up at Res Publica the archer checks the city center, finds only one promoted archer in the city, backs off. Up at Wealth of Nations:




I decide to cross the river with Maris Piper. It still provides flanking bonus and next turn I can go up on the hill and shoot the horseman without fear of retaliation. The horseman over here fortifies for the time being. In the river valley I bring the swordsman down to one copper and the horseman down to the other. Next turn I’ll have them swap places with the archers (or move Red Pontiac SW, the sword to its current posiiton and the horseman east. That’ll let me maximize support bonuses if Pindicator wants to use the horseman to attack.

Hasselback’s archer is done, it heads for Fondant. Going down the river valley is faster than going past Nazca. The city starts a horseman, that’ll be done in 4 turns, which will be just in time for unslotting Maneuver. The archer in the southeast moves into a forest and takes its available promotion.

[suboptimal]

Turn 86

Open the save and the action is centered for me at Art of War:




He’s bringing quite a bit of firepower down here. The good news is that I’ll be able to outrun his units (see the movement range). I cross the river and head west. He might land a parting shot with the archer but nothing too serious. Of course, I move and…




The horse can escape to the northwest if the spearman stays in the camp.

Up at Res Publica I confirm it’s just the lone archer. So, that means 65 milpower at Art of War, 25 at Res Publica and…




36 plus 20-25 at Wealth of Nations, out of a now-217 strong milpower rating, which leaves 2-3 units unaccounted for. On the western side Red Pontiac moves southwest and sees nothing. Swordsman moves to the geothermal vent, horseman stays put for now. On the eastern side, Maris Piper tops the hill and shoots the Khmer horseman for 34 damage and 8XP. Three more attacks and I can promote this unit. Whether or not Pindicator stands there taking his licks, though, I don’t know.




The Khmer horseman has between 60 and 70 points of damage left (mine has 65). If he retreats into the city I can advance the swords and up (bringing the western horse for support). In that case I move the wounded horseman next to the city, the swordsman & ram directly behind it and advance the western sword, horse and possibly archer (depending on what, if anything, is SW of the city center). If he doesn’t retreat the horse I’ll shoot it with the archer, advance the western swordsman (to reveal both the city center and the tile to its southwest) and then kill the unit with the swordsman (if the SW tile and the city center are not both archers) or sacrifice the wounded horseman and advance the warrior (if they are both archers). If the Khmer horse swaps with another unit then the wounded horseman will do the kill to keep the swordsman alive.

Up at Fondant the en route archer gets to the Campus. Pasture goes down at Hasselback (horse complete in two turns) and we’re two turns away from both city founding and popping another settler. The good news is that I was going to have to delay the policy swap by putting a turn into Theology in order to time things with the horseman build at Hasselback. However, that will complete with Defensive Tactics (instead of after) so there’s no longer a need to do this. In fact, all four of the current city builds will complete after next turn. Gee, there’s a going to be a lot happening on the turn after next.

I haven’t been paying attention to international new much lately, but an Unmet Player with two envoys has put Amani in at Valetta. Once he takes control that person will wrest suzerainty from Kaiser. I really need to get a boat in the water to start exploring.

I’ve also got an envoy waiting to be placed. Putting it into Valletta gets us 3 envoys there and +2 to units at Dauphinoise. That city would then have +4 to units due to the barrack and could be generating 23 base per turn if I move the citizen from the unmined diamonds to the PFH and once Apprenticeship completes (in three more turns). With the upcoming policy change and all builds completing in all cities I figure I’ve got two options.

Option 1: Archer Flood

Take out Maneuver and Equestrian Orders, put in Agoge and Colonization. Build archers at Dauphinoise and Hasselback every 2 turns and just send them all south. Fondant would build a warrior every three turns then put three turns into its Encampment or other infrastructure while waiting for iron and gold to accumulate for an upgrade. Mashed just pumps out settlers. At Fondant this could get a little tricky because the iron accumulates in 4-5 turns and the gold in 5-6 turns.

This would send a lot of units at Khmer relatively quickly but the big downside, I think, is that the archers could get chewed up moving through the forests at the front lines, which is the same problem we had before.

Option 2: Time for Crossbows

Take out Manuever and Equestrian Orders, put in Veterancy and Strategos. Machinery is completed the turn after the policy swap (finish Sailing in the meantime). Dauphinoise can build a crossbowman every 5 turns, Hasselback every 6 turns, because we’ve got the +50% from our Civ ability. Fondant builds a warrior, puts turns into the Encampment while iron/gold build up Same timing issues as above.

Originally I was thinking we could get a general relatively quickly but once Alhambram takes the first one off the table in four turns the next one will probably cost 120 GGP, not 60. If it stays cheap then we get the next one 8 turns after the policy swap and it works for horses, swords and crossbows. Otherwise it’s 23 turns, maybe less once Fondant’s Encampment and Barracks are completed, and only works for crossbows. If I give Pingala the Grants promotion (+100% Great Person Points) then the times are cut to 6 turns (at 60 points) or 16 turns (120 points).

This sends fewer units at Khmer but the crossbows would be able to absorb some punishment from archers, warriors and the occasional horseman, which I think would allow a faster breakthrough. We’d also get an immediate crossbow on the front line by upgrading the archer currently at Fondant which could be sent down through the jungle while another one (Level 4 Maris Piper, preferably) runs back up to Fondant for an upgrade as the gold accumulates. The down side is that this is SLOW. Transit time for crossbows to Fondant city center is 5 turns from Dauphinoise & 3 turns from Hasselback. From there it’s 6 turns to the jungle west of WoN or 4 turns to the wheat NE of WoN. That means the first built crossbow wouldn’t be near Wealth of Nations for 15 turns from the time we start building. We’d have two archers at WoN upgraded within 6 turns of the policy swap (one the turn after, one possibly five turns after that depending on which archer we bring back).

Do the lurkers have thoughts on these? I’m leaning towards Option 2 only because at some point Pindicator will field swordsmen and the archers won’t be able to get through the forest against them.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Given the realities of 1UPT and restricted terrain, I think quality over quantity is your best bet here.

[Banzailizard]

I am 100% in agreement with CMF. You need xbows to do anything against the walls and to take down his units. You have the gold for promotions too.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Sorry I've been so quiet lately, by the way. Going through some rough times at work and I find myself too distracted to do more than ask passing mechanics questions in threads

thinking is too hard

[CFCJesterFool]

Option 2 with a twist. Before razing WoN, upgrade Maris Piper to a crossbow. You would need to be able to reach the wheat tile (so it would need to be unoccupied) with at least one movement point left (upgrading costs 1 movement point and finishes that unit's turn.) The micro shouldn't be that hard.

[suboptimal]

CMF - it's cliche, but keep plugging away at things; they'll turn the corner at some point.

Jester - that would be ideal but Maris Piper could reach friendly territory in 3-4 turns from its current position depending upon where it crosses the river (4 turns if it needs to go NE, 3 turns if it crosses NW from the current tile).

[CFCJesterFool]

CMF - it's cliche, but keep plugging away at things; they'll turn the corner at some point.  

Jester - that would be ideal but Maris Piper could reach friendly territory in 3-4 turns from its current position depending upon where it crosses the river (4 turns if it needs to go NE, 3 turns if it crosses NW from the current tile).

What you need to consider is how long it will take to capture WoN and whether you need the ranged support. If it takes 6 turns round trip (excluding the turn spent upgrading) but you can capture in less than 6 turns then waiting (and gaining experience on Maris Piper) makes better tactical sense. Your call but I suspect you can capture in probably only four turns max.

[suboptimal]

CMF - it's cliche, but keep plugging away at things; they'll turn the corner at some point.  

Jester - that would be ideal but Maris Piper could reach friendly territory in 3-4 turns from its current position depending upon where it crosses the river (4 turns if it needs to go NE, 3 turns if it crosses NW from the current tile).

What you need to consider is how long it will take to capture WoN and whether you need the ranged support. If it takes 6 turns round trip (excluding the turn spent upgrading) but you can capture in less than 6 turns then waiting (and gaining experience on Maris Piper) makes better tactical sense. Your call but I suspect you can capture in probably only four turns max.

I need Maris Piper where it is to keep Pindicator honest on the northeastern part of the city.  I don't think it's going to take four turns to capture (I expect longer because it's me).  Should be 2-3 turns to wear down the walls unless Pindicator's got a surprise for us (remember, his milpower is climbing).  I only raise the possibility of upgrading Maris Piper because it's close enough to get upgraded and get back to the front lines and being able to fire twice at CS 52 against swords and horses would cut down his armies.  No other archers are close to that yet, IIRC.

[suboptimal]

Turn 87

It’s occurred to me that I need to check my situation as it relates to the new city popping up next turn. I need 85 to buy the iron tile and 170 to upgrade an archer the turn after next. Looks like the iron will be delayed a few turns. No matter. Open the save to notification that my horseman by Art of War was killed by a spearman. It was also attacked by Khmer, c’est la vie. I did have a close call with a volcano – the one my eastern archer is near just erupted. The good news is that I was two tiles away from said eruption. The other good news is that it shouldn’t erupt again in the next few turns so I can skirt by it to the south. Clear out the notifications and take a look around.

Up north the chariot and settler reach their new home. I defog some tiles in the process and it’s been a while, so here it is:




Not quite sure if there’s ice or a clear passage up there. City founds next turn. Down at Hasselback the builder moves into position to repair the mine and will do that next turn. I also realized that I was counting the repair as a charge and that’s not the case. I think the 33 tile on the other side of the volcano will get a mine in a couple of turns. At Res Publica I do the archer jog and the situation is unchanged except for a builder in the city center. That might be worth bringing the horseman around for a poach. Time for the main event:




The horseman has retreated and not stopped in the city. I think Pindicator may be abandoning it again, expecting a retake later on. This still requires some caution here, so I advance the western sword first. That reveals an archer and a trader with no horseman to the southwest. Bring up the horseman for support and debate what to do with the archer.

I could send the archer forward (SE) to be adjacent to the city. The issue there is the same I had with moving Maris Piper into position NE of the city – I don’t know what is SW of that tile. In the first assault Pindicator used that tile defensively to contain my advance. I also know if there’s any unit in that tile then I’d likely lose Red Pontiac on Pindicator’s turn. That doesn’t work for me. What does work is the horseman – it still has three movement left it swaps positions with Red Pontiac. Next turn I can send the horseman SE to see what lurks in the fog. It will be able to attack the city when the walls come down and should be able to withstand any attack by a unit in that tile.

Eastern sword/ram move up, as does the wounded horseman. The overlay shows that the swords will be able to take out the walls next turn, even if one gets banged up by the archer & city attack (expected damage to the NE sword: 39). The horseman would be able to do another 40 points of damage to the city and the assault will be on. Maris Piper crosses the river to the NE of the horseman – once the walls are down I’ll move in to farm XP for that next promotion. Provided we take the city I’m going to send Mashed’s third settler in this direction.

I’ll get some insight into the Great General costs next turn – Unmet Player (TBS) is getting a Great Admiral next turn (he’s making 7 points per turn (Cornflakes is making 8) and I’ll see the cost for the next one. I also check faith patronage – we’d save 1-2 turns max so that’s a non-starter unless I can pillage Pindicator’s Holy Sites before getting the general.

MECHANICS QUESTION: I know that under GS if you’re building a unit that upgrades into a resource requiring one (warrior → sword) and you accumulate enough resources to build the better unit you will lose all production in the worse unit. For “regular” upgrade situations (archer → crossbow) do you lose the production or does that rollover into the new unit? Asking because Hasselback and Dauphinoise can get two turns into archers to get a head start on crossbow production if it carries over.