(January 18th, 2015, 13:59)ipecac Wrote: Pulled back the sentry warrior down south so next turn we can get him within borders if need be. Also reworked plan for worker 100 so that it'll be within borders next turn so that's less 2 supply gold next turn.
I thought about that Warrior, but we really need to be sure nothing spawns in that corner - I guess a couple of turns can't hurt.
I'm pretty certain that whipping the Hub costs us Mono on our plan - we will have a Chariot coming out of TP end of next turn anyway remember and we've seen no sign of the Axe.
(January 18th, 2015, 14:45)Dreylin Wrote: I'm pretty certain that whipping the Hub costs us Mono on our plan - we will have a Chariot coming out of TP end of next turn anyway remember and we've seen no sign of the Axe.
All right.
Quote: Also, I think that since we think we're in a Settling race, that means we should observe a turn order...
In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.
I think it's a little bit grey from lat turn since you did log in before him - although I don't think you moved anything, right? In which case, yes I think we're second in the turn order now since both Ruff and I think there's a high probability there's a Settler following the Spear.
The only thing we gain by moving first is that we can save the Chariot; we'll actually learn a lot more by going second and seeing how he plays it. If he doesn't attack, then I expect that the Spear will stay where it is - assuming there is a Settler following, it doesn't look like the terrain will allow it to leapfrog forward.
IMO the key here is that Adrien doesn't actually know that he's in a Settling race - all the Axe saw as it went past was the Chariot. I was thinking of suggesting putting the Settler onto the Sheep next turn to have visibility of the northern peninsula, but if his Axe is there it will reveal our unit to him. We're best keeping in the valley as we progress.
The juggling from our POV is that we can found the city on our preferred spot in 3t, but it will take us 4t to get the Axes there and we can't cover with the Chariot. But, if we found the city even with his units next to it, the borders will push them away so that even if he attacks, the Axes will be there to defend.
If he delays moving the Spear forward, then we can advance the Settler 2tiles to 1S of the Sheep. From here we can lunge for the spot if he delays again. Radically, I want to suggest that if he doesn't attack the Chariot, we should move the Chariot onto the Spear's tile. That forces him to either attack or hold the Spear for the Settler, both of which buy us the extra turn we need.
If he moves the Spear forward without attacking (which I doubt), I think we put the Chariot 2E onto the forest. This keeps our visibility while maintaining a presence that has to be covered.
Regardless, I suspect we will want to discuss before playing....
(January 18th, 2015, 21:35)Dreylin Wrote: Quoted for reference from the etiquette thread:
(January 13th, 2015, 19:20)Old Harry Wrote:
In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.
I think it's a little bit grey from lat turn since you did log in before him - although I don't think you moved anything, right? In which case, yes I think we're second in the turn order now since both Ruff and I think there's a high probability there's a Settler following the Spear.
Yeah, I was waiting for him to move first.
Quote:The only thing we gain by moving first is that we can save the Chariot; we'll actually learn a lot more by going second and seeing how he plays it. If he doesn't attack, then I expect that the Spear will stay where it is - assuming there is a Settler following, it doesn't look like the terrain will allow it to leapfrog forward.
IMO the key here is that Adrien doesn't actually know that he's in a Settling race - all the Axe saw as it went past was the Chariot. I was thinking of suggesting putting the Settler onto the Sheep next turn to have visibility of the northern peninsula, but if his Axe is there it will reveal our unit to him. We're best keeping in the valley as we progress.
The juggling from our POV is that we can found the city on our preferred spot in 3t, but it will take us 4t to get the Axes there and we can't cover with the Chariot. But, if we found the city even with his units next to it, the borders will push them away so that even if he attacks, the Axes will be there to defend.
Quote:If he delays moving the Spear forward, then we can advance the Settler 2tiles to 1S of the Sheep. From here we can lunge for the spot if he delays again. Radically, I want to suggest that if he doesn't attack the Chariot, we should move the Chariot onto the Spear's tile. That forces him to either attack or hold the Spear for the Settler, both of which buy us the extra turn we need.
If he moves the Spear forward without attacking (which I doubt), I think we put the Chariot 2E onto the forest. This keeps our visibility while maintaining a presence that has to be covered.
That's a...radical plan It makes sense but let's see what happens first..
Your idea looks good: move chariot 1N and then move worker out of sight so that Adrien won't see us trying to settle yet and be tempted to kill the chariot...
But we can also just move 1NW, defogging 3 extra tiles north in exchange for not defogging the tile 1E of the Spear. I'm fine with both plans.
Adrien has a small power spike:
On another note, Ecbatana (bordering Twisted Pair) is somehow producing 2 culture per turn!? So we aren't going to win the culture war unless we get up more culture. I've edited the Plan to get the chop into a 1T temple, though feel free to veto it if you think there's a better idea (we don't need the extra happy).
For interested Lurkers, our chat this morning (my time):
Dreylin
How did it look? ipecac rb
the spear retreaed to cover a worker
and one of our workers saw his axe across the water
trying to get screenshots up Dreylin
the Spear retreated!
YAY! :D ipecac rb
we have enough gold to get Mono without any additional tile/unit shuffling Dreylin
even with an extra unit out of borders? ipecac rb
yeah
cos one of the workers moved back in as per Plan Dreylin
oh the one on the Marble? ipecac rb
mm
moved it to road the workshop instead
which connects the marble but within borders Dreylin
can it get from there to the forest tile in time to make the chop?
back in a sec ipecac rb
yes
bah
uploading of screen shots are problematic Dreylin
Ah, I can't get to that site through the work firewall...
So you've played the turn? ipecac rb
Not yet
*not completely Dreylin
so where is his Spear?
in relation to where it was last turn? ipecac rb
1SE Dreylin
Wohoo!
we've got the site
(I think) ipecac rb
got the screenshots working
post is up
didn't move chariot, didn't move the worker with 1mp further
his axe is Combat II + Shock Dreylin
yeah ipecac rb
we could choke him by moving our own axe 1W of sheep Dreylin
only if we're at war
(pics slowly downloading on phone)
I have to go to a meeting in 5mins
will you still be around in an hour or so? ipecac rb
i'm afraid not Dreylin
what about my evening / your tomorrow morning? ipecac rb
i'm not sure i can definitely be on
i'll just write down my thoughts in the post
we don't have that many choices anyway
in the North(west) we either let him see our worker or not Dreylin
I think we should move the Chariot 1NE
that should give us great visibility
where is his Axe? ipecac rb
i agree Dreylin
(sorry, no joy with the pics) ipecac rb
1W where it was T90, or 1W of the jungle hill
1N of the cows Dreylin
so we show him the Axe, but push the Worker further forward?
Settler advances 2
Also, if you go back in - check if Adrien has met Elum yet
that will tell us something about the NW
got to run! ipecac rb
he met elum at least 1T ago Dreylin
urgh ipecac rb
agree to showing him the axe Dreylin
we lose a worker turn by pushing it a tile further ipecac rb
yeah
so i don't know
i'm fine either way, really Dreylin
we should make that decision after seeing what the Chariot move reveals ipecac rb
okay Dreylin
we can make back a turn by roading the flatland 1W of the city rather than the hill SW ipecac rb
hmm
so tentatively, depending on what chariot finds
we move worker out of sight
so that he won't be tempted to kill the chariot
One additional comment that I didn't have time to make during the chat; the fact that Adrien has met Elum is not good news because (coupled with the current positioning of Adrien's Axe) it suggests that Elum may have settled quite close to the NW of our Sheep spot - he Settled /somewhere/ in the last couple of turns.
It is, however, a great sign that Adrien didn't kill the Chariot when he could have; it suggests that he thinks it's just a scouting unit and not the herald of a settling effort. That's why I think we keep the Workers out of sight of the Axe for another turn and also why I think we need to use the Chariot to view the tiles to the East of the Spear/Worker to see what's coming.
However, I'm reasonably confident that we will will get to the site and found the city that we want to first because:
1) we know that the Worker moved into the forest this turn. This means:
2) it will be 2t before the tile is Roaded. This means:
3) the furthest a Settler coming from that direction can get next turn will be onto the Desert (or 1S).
That turn, our Settler will be in place on the chokepoint spot and (importantly) Adrien will not know it. Assuming he is not planning to found on the Desert (which I think highly unlikely), that means we can found ahead of him.
I think that we can afford to move the Chariot 1N into the forest that the Spear was in last turn - he didn't kill it last turn, so that makes it less likely he'll do so a turn later. It will give us the most visibility of potential advancing units (military or civilian) and allow us to be confident in playing the next turns. IMO it's better to risk losing the Chariot for better info than it is to risk losing the city.
It will also let us plan the Worker/Axe moves for the following turn. I think his Axe will see something next turn, but we have the potential to make it look like we're aiming for the spot 1W of the Sheep if we move the Axe onto that spot to be seen "guarding it". Whether we can afford to do that depends on the potential for him to threaten the new city with something before we can get the second Axe there.
If Adrien's Axe moves S it will see the Worker in the Forest and the Axe, but not the Settler and Worker. We move the Settler to the spot next turn and found before he knows it's even a possibility.
Looks like they met t91 - which is when his Axe was 1N of the current spot. I think that means Elum has a city up there, or is scouting towards it.
Oh, and Judaism in Patch Panel:
I made a few tweaks and suggestions in the Plan; take a look and let me know what you think.
(January 19th, 2015, 22:47)Dreylin Wrote: I made a few tweaks and suggestions in the Plan; take a look and let me know what you think.
Sounds good.
ZIF is going to be low on food at first because the next city will be planting T104/105 1W of sheep and using it, but it'll be fine with a lighthouse to work those 303 lake tiles and a Farm (Agri researched eot107)
OK, so maybe we should have been more conservative with the Chariot:
He offered us a Cease Fire, which I didn't accept so I could look around.
The Axe has moved out of sight in the West, so has only seen the Axe but not the Worker. We know where the Spear is, but the risk is that he's moved a Chariot forward out of the fog onto the PHF to the NE of the city site, so I don't feel comfortable making this turn's decisions on my own.
Aha, in chat now so I'll post this and we can discuss.
So ipecac and I discussed; he was nervous about the situation and I was a bit gung-ho at first, but we found a compromise that delays the Settler advance by a turn, but lets us precede it with the first Axe to confirm the site is clear. That involves pulling a third Worker forward so that we can road under the Axe & Settler and the tile 1E so we can advance the Axe 2t next turn - then the Settler will follow if the coast is clear. Here's the post-turn situation:
The risk of moving forward is that he has moved a Chariot out of the fog and onto the PFH; the risk of delaying is that he has a Settler 1E of the Worker and can put it on the PFH next turn and found there (at least that's my reading of where he's aiming).
Cease Fire was re-proposed. I considered offering a Peace Treaty followed by the Cease Fire, but thought he might suspect something was up.
Full text of discussion (if I find time I will colour-code):
ipecac 8:15 PM
how's the situation?
me 8:20 PM
let me post it
posted
Adrien killed the Spear
I'm playing the rest of the turn
Worker moves away from the zone, etc.
ipecac rb 8:29 PM
i think we have to plant 1W of the sheep
me 8:29 PM
you don't think it's worth the risk?
ipecac rb 8:34 PM
i think it'd be one risk too many
if he has one chariot around the area we can't defend the city- the chariot doesn't need to be at the pfh
wait
does he have horses hooked?
if so i think we just plant 1w of sheep
this turn whip the workboat in the HUb over flowing into 1T spear
me 8:35 PM
I can't check on the Horses since we'r at war, but I'm pretty certain he does
ipecac rb 8:36 PM
the chokepoint is much harder to defend for him than for us
me 8:37 PM
if he plants on that spot
ipecac rb 8:37 PM
we can aim to have one axe in the new city, and 1 Axe+ 1 spear 2SW on the grassland hill
me 8:39 PM
I'd bet on him founding on the pfh
and he'll have it down before we can get there
we can't plant before t100
even with a 3pop whip from TP
ipecac rb 8:40 PM
i think that really can't be helped
say he has no chariot atound
and we found successfully
he just needs to whip one chariot from the city east to place our city at high risk
me 8:41 PM
except
he can't attack the city from 2t away
so the Chariot has to move next to the city
before it can attack
which means that we can attack out with an Axe
ipecac rb 8:41 PM
he can hit it from pfh
me 8:41 PM
which will have odds because no def bonus
ipecac rb 8:41 PM
across river, but + 100%>+50%
me 8:41 PM
that is the risk
that's a def bonus
huh?
confused
ipecac rb 8:42 PM
he can hit our axe in the city from the pfh
though we get 50% def bonues, he gets 100% attacking bonus
me 8:45 PM
only if the Chariot is around now
because if it isn't then we get a window to attack the Chariot when it has to stop on that tile
1) assume we re-offer the Cease Fire
2) he can't see anything, so has no reason not to accept
3) he moves the Spear forward - oh no, Settler
4) he doesn't declare war (this is important)
5) we found - bumps his units back 1t
6) he declare & moves forward
7) Axe garrisons
8) 2nd Axe arrives
we know where the Sper is
*Spear
ipecac rb 8:46 PM
but why would he not declare war at 4)
he'll know he'd get bumped back, so he won't
*so he will declare war
me 8:47 PM
In that case, we back the Settler up
next turn we can occupy the site with 2Axes
(probably plus the Chariot from The Hub)
ipecac rb 8:48 PM
can our axe get there T94?
ie next turn
me 8:50 PM
yes
if we pull in the 3rd Worker
the Axe advances 1t this turn
we put 1t of road under that tile
next turn we have 3worker to complete that Road and road the next tile
so the Axe can advance 2
ipecac rb 8:50 PM
hmmmm
me 8:52 PM
the second axe is a turn behind
so our risk is that there's a Chariot in the vicinity already
good call BTW to ask that, I hadn't thought about it
actually, that needs to be tweaked, but it's still possible
ipecac rb 8:53 PM
or we can found 1SW of the spot
then push 1NW for the other city
which makes both crappier though
me 8:54 PM
yeah
I'd rather abandon that spot and keep the 1W of Sheep
ipecac rb 8:56 PM
i'm not very comfortable with the risk as it stands
me 8:56 PM
Chariot from TP get 1W of site on t96
ipecac rb 8:56 PM
can we delay the settling 1T?
so we can get the axe to the spot first to see if there's anything
me 8:57 PM
Hmmm
ipecac rb 8:57 PM
then next turn chariot will get there
me 9:01 PM
the Worker will finish the Road next turn
if he has a Settler 1E of that
he can put it on the pfh next turn
then settle the following
which would be the turn we move onto our target
we're still vulnerable to a Chariot
but he doesn't have the extra warning that he'd need it
ipecac rb 9:02 PM
i really don't think the city site is worth the risk of founding asap
but i'll leave the final call to you
me 9:02 PM
gah
ipecac rb 9:04 PM
how much damage did the spear take
me 9:04 PM
oh, good question - let me check
took 2hits
74/100
ipecac rb 9:05 PM
he can just promote to heal
me 9:05 PM
don't think so
he had 99.5%
ipecac rb 9:06 PM
i'd rather be on the end where our axe threatens his city than vice versa
ie we cease fire
me 9:06 PM
OK
ipecac rb 9:06 PM
next turn our axe gets to our site. if we see a settler, we declare
me 9:07 PM
yeah
I think I'm agreeing
lets plan to delay a turn
ipecac rb 9:07 PM
okay
me 9:07 PM
where the Settler is, he can get back onto the 1W of Sheep
ipecac rb 9:07 PM
settler is fine where he is
me 9:07 PM
yeah
but we do need to move the Worker forward 1E
ipecac rb 9:08 PM
i think that's an okay risk
me 9:08 PM
which is OK because he can't have a Chariot in range
ipecac rb 9:09 PM
yep
what's his power like?
me 9:11 PM
re-propose the Cease Fire
power hasn't changed since the bump
Also
if he thought we were a threat, he might have advanced the Axe
ipecac rb 9:12 PM
well, we're getting a chariot soon?
gotta afk soon
me 9:14 PM
yes, from TP
If we whip the WB at The Hub, we can put the overflow into the Spear, or finish the Chariot
me 9:19 PM
Still there?
Just want to confirm we're whipping the WB?
from The Hub
me 9:38 PM
OK, done that & updated the Plan
It makes sense but let's see what happens first..
![[Image: Screen%20Shot%202015-01-19%20at%2011.19.....jpg?raw=1]](https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4fqocihdhz9nsm/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-19%20at%2011.19.39%20pm.jpg?raw=1)
![[Image: Surprise%21.png?raw=1]](https://www.dropbox.com/s/j22a65a81eomlgm/Surprise%21.png?raw=1)
![[Image: Screen%20Shot%202015-01-20%20at%2012.08.....png?raw=1]](https://www.dropbox.com/s/iln28e1hl1wj88z/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-20%20at%2012.08.25%20am.png?raw=1)
![[Image: Screen%20Shot%202015-01-20%20at%2012.07.....png?raw=1]](https://www.dropbox.com/s/za17t93b8wmj35v/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-20%20at%2012.07.00%20am.png?raw=1)
