PB71: Lurkers dwell in blissful ignorance

[Qgqqqqq]

My thoughts.

Map 1:
1. Start is reasonable. Powerful happy/commerce, but I don't think it should be weakened given limited alteration. Core three strategic resources in stones throw. No changes.
2. 2 clams may be a bit weak? Change one to a fish or add a third. Otherwise not terrible, it has forests and strategic. Horse is contestable but close enough.
3. A bit strong, perhaps downgrade one of the food resources? Copper and iron are far but not too far.
4. Reasonable, no changes to the start. Copper is too far, place in third ring instead of iron and push iron somewhere else, e.g. in the desert.
5. Best to assume they move 1W. If so may be too food-heavy - downgrade the pigs? No copper, add somewhere - in the tundra near the deer?
6. Start is fine. No copper or horse, place somewhere. Maybe they go 1W? Still don't think that's too strong, even with the 6f tile.
7. Note the closeness to the E - this is what makes me suss on this map. That's potentially four tiles between BFCs. Start is fine, perhaps a little strong. Copper and horse needed closer.

Map 2:
1. A little food poor - upgrade a cow, or even both? Maybe shift the other one E? Copper currently contested, add one on the desert N of the Marble.
2. Food poor again. Perhaps upgrade one of the two? Though they can go 1SE to add a sheep. Move the copper (contested) closer.
3. Likely moves NE, N. Still very food poor. This one might need something added - or a cow made into a pig.
4. This start seems too good. Push a gold away, make the pig a sheep? Place copper somewhere. There's a uncontested horse near the wheat, so don't worry about that.
5. This seems reasonable. Three 4f tiles is okay. Add copper somewhere, push that horse a little closer (2S, 1E?).
6. A little barren (note: a furs next to the crabs). Add a seafood? Though they can add a sheep if they go 2E - though not sure they'll scout it. Add copper - maybe in the southern tundra
7. Slightly strengthen the start? Maybe add a clam. Check the iron.

[Tarkeel]

Will look on the starts in more detail later tonight, but regarding size: People tend to say they want 100-ish tiles per player, but don't really understand just how small that is (PB62 comes to mind...). For a random generated map where the quality per tile is lower and cities usually aren't as close togheter, I'd probably go with a slightly higher tilecount.

(Another issue of course is that workable coast tiles aren't counted)

[Tarkeel]

Map 1:
1. Start is reasonable. Powerful happy/commerce, but I don't think it should be weakened given limited alteration. Core three strategic resources in stones throw. No changes.
Tarkeel: Light on food, but has other strengths like the gold. Could consider adding a dry wheat or crab/clam in the lake, but seems fine.
2. 2 clams may be a bit weak? Change one to a fish or add a third. Otherwise not terrible, it has forests and strategic. Horse is contestable but close enough.
Tarkeel: Agreed; Another option would be move a clam to the lake.
3. A bit strong, perhaps downgrade one of the food resources? Copper and iron are far but not too far.
Tarkeel: Hill-sheep isn't really a food resource though, so I think this is fine.
4. Reasonable, no changes to the start. Copper is too far, place in third ring instead of iron and push iron somewhere else, e.g. in the desert.
Tarkeel: Agreed, but I'd avoid the actual desert, but adjacent.
5. Best to assume they move 1W. If so may be too food-heavy - downgrade the pigs? No copper, add somewhere - in the tundra near the deer?
Tarkeel: Move is dependant on defogging the pig IMHO. Don't think it's too food heavy early on; later with lighthouse, maybe.
6. Start is fine. No copper or horse, place somewhere. Maybe they go 1W? Still don't think that's too strong, even with the 6f tile.
Tarkeel: If anything, it's a bit on the weak side, but I think it's fine. Would put copper S near clams, and horse 2E of aluminium.
7. Note the closeness to the E - this is what makes me suss on this map. That's potentially four tiles between BFCs. Start is fine, perhaps a little strong. Copper and horse needed closer.
Tarkeel: Agreed, copper should go to the west.

Map 2:
1. A little food poor - upgrade a cow, or even both? Maybe shift the other one E? Copper currently contested, add one on the desert N of the Marble.
Tarkeel: Food is about the same as the other #1 start, and there's still a metal. It is on the rough edge though.
2. Food poor again. Perhaps upgrade one of the two? Though they can go 1SE to add a sheep. Move the copper (contested) closer.
Tarkeel: Extremely food poor; could upgrade both to wheat for a decent start.
3. Likely moves NE, N. Still very food poor. This one might need something added - or a cow made into a pig.
Tarkeel: Would add a seafood, possibly in lake.
4. This start seems too good. Push a gold away, make the pig a sheep? Place copper somewhere. There's a uncontested horse near the wheat, so don't worry about that.
Tarkeel: Agreed, but note that the corn can never be irrigated. Not sure pushing one gold away accomplishes much, you're not working both in the early game. Pig to sheep seems best.
5. This seems reasonable. Three 4f tiles is okay. Add copper somewhere, push that horse a little closer (2S, 1E?).
Tarkeel: Agreed
6. A little barren (note: a furs next to the crabs). Add a seafood? Though they can add a sheep if they go 2E - though not sure they'll scout it. Add copper - maybe in the southern tundra
Tarkeel: Second sheep would be plain luck to hit, it can't be scouted in time. Would add or upgrade to keep it in line, seafood to the W seems best
7. Slightly strengthen the start? Maybe add a clam. Check the iron.
Tarkeel: Only one food seems harsh; could add a dry corn in the north.

After looking at it in more detail, I think the first map is the best.

[Mjmd]

I can't seem to access that zip file. Can you take a screenshot of maps T1 with everyone settled?

PB69 is like 115 tiles per player and that seems about right, but its all dependent on shape and its shapped. A 200 tile / player map can feel the same if its a lot of land (PB65 ish).

[Qgqqqqq]

I'll take a bunch of screenshots tonight, though I'm not going to be stitching. Tarkeel, even with some players being that close?

[Tarkeel]

Sumeria and Scandinavia are the only ones that feel a bit too close in both directions, but for a random map I think this is within what's asked for.

[Qgqqqqq]

With the alterations discussed, full screenshots of Map number 1.

I think personally I'm more likely to go for map number 2. I think players are more likely to be up and arms at the distances, and that given the land quality, people would prefer a little on the high side of room.

[Qgqqqqq]

Again, for map number 2. Full screenshots, plus one showing border regions and culture:

24hrs for preferences, before I post starts and send the map in.

[scooter]

Honestly, I would pick map 1. It just looks like it would be more fun to play, and I'd always bias towards that. Some of the snakier land sections will make the map feel a bit "bigger" than it seems. There will also be a lot of coast working on this type of map which will also help.

[Mjmd]

mini maps PLEASE!!!!