Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed

[Attika]

"They all are essentially falling into the same trap. The problem isn't that they go against the rules of the variant. The problem is rather that they go against the rules of the game itself."

Yep. And by the rules of the game itself, you should NEVER accept ANY items from others; you'd never know if they were hacked/legit or not. Thus, NO Elitist should accept ANY birthday gift other than ones the player himself has found and then muled to another character. That's the ONLY way to be 100% sure.

However, there's the issue of findability. I've been playing Diablo for over -- what -- eight years(??) and have NEVER found a Staff of Shadows, NEVER found a Celestial Axe, and NEVER found a Celestial Bow. Luck of the draw there. And although these items aren't especially good, they certainly would come in handy for an IronSnob because of their low qlevels. However, how to obtain them? Troll the forums begging for the items and hope someone responds who I think is 100% trustworthy regarding legit items? Play another 8 years and hope one drops? Or.....

Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... and since none of us have an unlimited amount of gaming time.... then would you not be allowed to import a legitimate item into the game? If no, how would you suggest a IronSnob or a Snob go about acquiring the item (especially a very rare one) for use?

re: #1. Can Unique items that only appear as SP quest rewards be available as birthday gifts to Elitists?...
"That is the hangup, because the tradition here is that the rules of the variant are additions to the normal rules of the game rather than being exceptions or replacements for them "

The first question is within the realm of a normal Single Player game. The item(s) COULD drop and DO drop in the game. It is NOT a replacement. It is NOT an exception. It IS within the normal rules and play of the game.

When I think of gifts for Multiplayer Elitists, I think of what the "gift pool" contains. In Multiplayer, that would include ALL the items findable in Multiplayer games.

For Single Player Elitists then, in Single Player games shouldn't it include all the items findable in Singleplayer (including, *shudder*, SP Unique amulets)? Multiplayer unique items are those findable in multiplayer; single player unique items are those findable in single player.

"3) import and use items that don't exist, then the answer would clearly be "no"

This is not what I am asking. Import and use items that Jarulf says don't exist." Jarulf is INCORRECT in this case. The item (Armor of Gloom) DOES exist and DOES drop and SHOULD be allowable. That is what I'm asking.

Also, Jarulf's says the RoE DOES exist in Single Player HF. The chances of it actually dropping would be ..... well, you'd have to have (I think) NINE (or ten?) unique rings of better than qlevel 7 drop one after the other IN THE SAME game. I'm trying to think when I've ever had nine unique rings drop in a single game.

"Would I call it a true single player elitist? No, I would say that a single player elitist cannot get gifts. Think of this as a parallel to the concept that a solo IronMan cannot be ressurected, simply because there is nobody to res him. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it."

I simply disagree with you here. I suppose in some single player universe(s) NOBODY is entering and leaving the dungeon and bringing out items except one's own character. But, we KNOW that at least THREE people in the town AND TWO other ADVENTURERS HAVE entered and left(?) the dungeon, and EVEN BROUGHT OUT(maybe)/LEFT UNIQUE ITEMS (Harlequin Crest & Slain Hero item) in the Diablo Single Player game universe. So, to my mind, even in the Single Player Universe there are adventurers entering and leaving the dungeon; it's just that _your_ character is going to attempt the _dungeon_ solo _by choice_. Others might be doing the same thing, even at the same time, but your Single Player character won't be venturing with them. But these other characters certainly would be finding items, Unique items at that, and bringing them out. I'm not claiming my Single Player Elitist character is the ONLY Elitist in this entire gaming universe (whatever logic allows Elitists to exist in MP games should allow them to exist in SP games), so . . . if he DOES get to interact with the other Elitists that exist there, and he does get to ask those other Elitists for birthday gifts while he is in town(not the Dungeon), the question then would be what is his "gift pool"?

However, this would be a moot point if you don't agree on the premise of this parallel universe nor the use of item importers. A difference of opinion there.

(The solo Single Player Ironman cannot be ressurected because res scrolls don't exist in the Single Player game. In Multiplayer, a solo IM player isn't ressurected because no one is with him at the exact time and place where he died. You might claim that someone comes upon his body each and every time and ressurects him. However -- and watching the red screen after you die -- isn't it MORE likely that his body is going to dismembered and/or devoured and/or dissolved and/or incinerated and be unavailable for ressing?)

In closing, there's the question of playability/desirability. Without even a first birthday gift you'll be fighting naked and barehanded and shieldless for a long time. Eventually something might drop. Eventually. One of the reasons playing a Multiplayer Elitist ISN'T boring/tedious is that you can choose a pretty decent first birthday gift. After that it's pretty much just a question of your skills and tactics. I'd like to challenge others similarly, and have the rules reflect that also. The rules for Elitists are plenty challenging for Multiplayer games, even with the Birthday gifts. Let's challenge others playing Single Player Elitists with foes, not tedium. Let the SP Elitist rules be as close to the Multiplayer ones as possible. Multiplayer allows bday gifts; Single Player should also, IMO.



Attika

PS On the second question, "#2. Can Single Player items be allowed in MP games?" it sounds like everyone gives that a resounding "no" vote so -- unless someone else really feels strongly otherwise -- that point is done.

[Lemming]

And by the rules of the game itself, you should NEVER accept ANY items from others; you'd never know if they were hacked/legit or not.

"Legit" describes the condition under which you played the game. "Legitimacy" is not a rule unto itself, but a concern of the player who wants to play the game under normal conditions.

Thus, NO Elitist should accept ANY birthday gift other than ones the player himself has found and then muled to another character. That's the ONLY way to be 100% sure.

In MP, no, you can't be 100% sure. You just do your best.

For instance, years ago when Charis gave me a Gibbous Moon I didn't doubt its legitimacy. Why? Because I trust that Charis plays legit. If I made some achievement while wielding Gibbous and posted a write-up here, I doubt anyone would question my legitimacy for accepting Gibbous from Charis. Why? Because they trust him, too.

Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... and since none of us have an unlimited amount of gaming time.... then would you not be allowed to import a legitimate item into the game? If no, how would you suggest a IronSnob or a Snob go about acquiring the item (especially a very rare one) for use?

"Legit" just means "I played the game normally." Otherwise, you didn't. If you want to impress other folks with your achievement, eludicate any abnormal conditions in your write-up. That way they can judge whether your achievement was an achievement.

The first question is within the realm of a normal Single Player game. The item(s) COULD drop and DO drop in the game. It is NOT a replacement. It is NOT an exception. It IS within the normal rules and play of the game.

You attempted earlier to say MP's method of obtaining the item violates the "game rules" because you can never be sure an item's legit, thus it's similar to SP since it, too, has no "game rules" method of obtaining the gift legitimately. MP gifts don't violate game rules, but the gift may be questionable. SP gifts, otoh, do violate game rules. So, let's take examples.

Suppose your SNOB accepts a Demonspike Coat as a birthday gift from some public-gaming stranger. If you post your 3@30 and you mention the source of your DSC, somebody's going to tell you your SNOB's probably using a duplicated item.

Suppose your SNOB accepts a DSC as a birthday gift from KingofPain. If you post your 3@30 and mention that, nobody's going to question it because nobody here doubts KoP plays legit.

Suppose your SNOB accepts a DSC as a birthday gift in SP. If you posted your 3@30 (hehe, SP 3@30), somebody's gonna ask how you got it. "With an importer, of course." Depending on how the reader feels about that, they may or may not think your achievement is bogus.

When I think of gifts for Multiplayer Elitists, I think of what the "gift pool" contains. In Multiplayer, that would include ALL the items findable in Multiplayer games.

I agree with you that the SP SNOB pool of usable items includes quest items and things like Bramble, Mangler, and Gonnagal's Dirk. I also agree with Nystul when he says the birthday-gift rule in SP would be a violation of game rules, and I agree when he says it'd be fine if you want to import b-day gifts for a SP SNOB, just make note of it in your write-up.

Also, Jarulf's says the RoE DOES exist in Single Player HF. The chances of it actually dropping would be ..... well, you'd have to have (I think) NINE (or ten?) unique rings of better than qlevel 7 drop one after the other IN THE SAME game. I'm trying to think when I've ever had nine unique rings drop in a single game.

Hellfire is terribly broken. Sierra was drunk as a skunk when they made it.

But, we KNOW that at least THREE people in the town AND TWO other ADVENTURERS HAVE entered and left(?) the dungeon, and EVEN BROUGHT OUT(maybe)/LEFT UNIQUE ITEMS (Harlequin Crest & Slain Hero item) in the Diablo Single Player game universe.

Story elements do not game rules make.

-Lemmy

[Lemming]

Nothing productive will come from these exchanges while (he said) you are hanging on thin air, and (she siad) I remain "snobbish".

What?

-Lem

[Scrape]

Attika: And by the rules of the game itself, you should NEVER accept ANY items from others; you'd never know if they were hacked/legit or not. Thus, NO Elitist should accept ANY birthday gift other than ones the player himself has found and then muled to another character. That's the ONLY way to be 100% sure.

Lemming commented on this, but I will do so as well.

That is not a rule of the game. That is a rule (although it can be argued whether it is actually a rule or not) made by a player(s).

Attika: However, there's the issue of findability. I've been playing Diablo for over -- what -- eight years(??) and have NEVER found a Staff of Shadows, NEVER found a Celestial Axe, and NEVER found a Celestial Bow. Luck of the draw there. And although these items aren't especially good, they certainly would come in handy for an IronSnob because of their low qlevels. However, how to obtain them? Troll the forums begging for the items and hope someone responds who I think is 100% trustworthy regarding legit items? Play another 8 years and hope one drops? Or.....

Almost eight years rather.

But ah, not being able to find certain items. That is part of the game's design. Maybe not directly, but it certainly has that effect on some players.

How to obtain them? As you basically stated, you keep playing until you find them. As for the case of single player, you keep playing until you find them and you will not be getting any gifts.

Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... and since none of us have an unlimited amount of gaming time.... then would you not be allowed to import a legitimate item into the game? If no, how would you suggest a IronSnob or a Snob go about acquiring the item (especially a very rare one) for use?

I basically answered this in my previous grouping of words. You keep playing until you find the items.

Like certain others, I have been playing this game since it first came out. There are certain items I have been craving over others. One such item is a perfect king's sword of haste (in bastard form). That has always been my "dream item," as it goes. It would feel so lovely to wield that on my sorcerer.

But anyway, that is my point. I do not regret that I have not found it yet. I enjoy the idea that I still have a chance to find it.

I am not saying I am right on this issue. In my own opinion, I just feel this is the way to play, as I have stated before...without importing items.

What I said in my other posts is similar to what Nystul said.

Attika: Without even a first birthday gift you'll be fighting naked and barehanded and shieldless for a long time.

To me it is better to play naked for as long as necessary than to simulate birthday gifts.

Lemming: Because I trust that Charis plays legit. If I made some achievement while wielding Gibbous and posted a write-up here, I doubt anyone would question my legitimacy for accepting Gibbous from Charis. Why? Because they trust him, too.

Suppose your SNOB accepts a DSC as a birthday gift from KingofPain. If you post your 3@30 and mention that, nobody's going to question it because nobody here doubts KoP plays legit.

I am not judging anyone here. However, you should not be speaking for everyone. Regardless of that, no matter how much you think you know someone, you probably can never know "for sure" if they are legit.

I do agree with you on including the necessary details when writing up your stories. If you decide to play by other ways, such as using an importer, that is fine. Just include the details when you inform others.

Lemming, what happened to your previous signature? When and why did you stop using it?

[Lemming]

[b]Lemming: Without even a first birthday gift you'll be fighting naked and barehanded and shieldless for a long time.

To me it is better to play naked for as long as necessary than to simulate birthday gifts.[/b]

The quoted quote was an Attika quote.

However, you should not be speaking for everyone. Regardless of that, no matter how much you think you know someone, you probably can never know "for sure" if they are legit.

I don't need schooling on generalizations. Nor do I need to be informed that "Is that player legit?" is probabilistic, not deterministic. (I've lectured on the topic myself several times at other fora.) My point was that, to the best of my knowledge, people at RBD trust that the players I mentioned play legitimately. Trusting that we all play legit has long been a fixture of this community, has it not?

Lemming, what happened to your previous signature? When and why did you stop using it?

I stopped using it sometime in spring. I haven't decided why.

-Lemmy

[Scrape]

I will fix that mistake momentarily.

I am not trying to "school" you. I was stating my opinion.

Regardless of whether or not you need to be informed, that way you worded your statements forced me to respond in such a way.

Perhaps you did not mean to speak for everyone, but the way it was stated, it seemed like you were.

And it is always a point to consider, but perhaps that is just my opinion, which seems to be a certain theme lately.

I should have mentioned, however, that although you can never be sure, you can develop trust, as was mentioned.

Similar to those that do not have answers for certain questions. They rely on their faith.

Furthermore, often old topics seem to get new attention.

[KingOfPain]

(I’m not interested in discussing Mods at this point. Leave them out of the discussion for now.) - Attika

Give up already. Don't try to steer this thread and try to validate your PoV on modding this variant. You are, however, welcome to start a new thread on it.

(2) Of course one has to spell out the conditions under which they play. I think everyone in this thread has agreed on that... multiple times.

You mean I am not the only quilty one? *looks at the above sentence* Oh look, yet another repeat!!! Call the cops. Call the cops.

Anyway bad copy/paste there. It supposed to end with "...so you are not saving yourself any typing..." so let me repeat - Name or no name, or by any other name, you would still have to spell out under what conditions the deeds are achieved. So, you are not saving yourself any typing or explaination of the changes.

Did this happen sometime in the distant past and I don't know about it?

Why should that surprise you, distant past or not. No, I don't care to dig out links or recite background communications.

Why should it surprise you that many people have different tolerance level toward bending the rules, or, strecthing the meaning of words such as legit or spirit. I am not saying one should or should not care, or be it right or wrong. That's just the way it works.

Let me give you one example (it may or may not be actual)
SoAndSo posts a battle report doing suchandsuch with thisandthat out of the "ordinary"
KoP reads, thinks "that doesn't look right".
That can be caused by many reasons. All you have to do is look over this entire thread for a tiny exampling.
KoP reads the entire report anyway, thinks that's not so bad, no need to make a fuss.
SoAndSo posts another battle report doing suchandsuch with thisandthat out of the "ordinary"
KoP skips to the end and read the summary.
SoAndSo posts yet another battle report doing suchandsuch with thisandthat out of the "ordinary".
KoP reads the first part thinking "what now?" and then skips the entire post.
Too bad. KoP missed a good read of an extraordinary adventure. If only he would read on as the story unfolded he would have found that it was quite a challenge and may even congratulate SoAndSo's ingenious usage of thisandthat to accomplish suchandsuch.


KoP

[Lemming]

Give up already.

Threads branch for a reason. You repeatedly claim things that don't make sense to me and then fail to eludicate when pressed. Why should I consider your opinion if you won't explain it when I ask questions? I've explained mine in gory detail, but, as is evident from the way you strawman me and tell me to shut up... What should I conclude from that, KoP?

Why should it surprise you that many people have different tolerance level toward bending the rules, or, strecthing the meaning of words such as legit or spirit.

I wasn't surprised at that. I was surprised people in this community would be characterized as expressing negativity and prejudice toward someone attempting something that's actually challenging -- assuming the conditions of the challenge were explained beforehand.

Let me give you one example (it may or may not be actual)
SoAndSo posts a battle report doing suchandsuch with thisandthat out of the "ordinary"
KoP reads, thinks "that doesn't look right".

"That doesn't look right" seems to imply the battle report didn't spell out the abnormal game conditions correctly, surprising you with something that causes a "Huh??" half-way through.

e.g. "And then when the IM team finished off Laz, they ID'd the FPM he dropped: GPOW!"

That would certainly surprise me. My question, however, assumes the author is upfront and forward with the abnormal game conditions (hence the example : "Did someone claim to play a VK SNOB and get blasted for it?" Claiming to play a VK SNOB eludicates the abnormal conditions for those familar with VK mod.). If I saw earlier (preferably in some sort of technical preamble) "Godly and Whale qlvls reduced to 25." then I'd think, "Well, Laz can drop qlvl 25. But do I consider it an achievement to win an IM with GPoW?"

-Lem

[Nystul]

Yep. And by the rules of the game itself, you should NEVER accept ANY items from others; you'd never know if they were hacked/legit or not.

One could go a step further and say that if you play with another character, they may be cheating and you may be benefiting from it. But defining the concept of legit in such a way defeats the main point of defining the concept in the first place, which is to interact with other players in a cheat-free environment. Variants are generally assumed to be "legit" but not necessarily "pure" or even "player pure".

However, there's the issue of findability. I've been playing Diablo for over -- what -- eight years(??) and have NEVER found a Staff of Shadows, NEVER found a Celestial Axe, and NEVER found a Celestial Bow. Luck of the draw there. And although these items aren't especially good, they certainly would come in handy for an IronSnob because of their low qlevels. However, how to obtain them? Troll the forums begging for the items and hope someone responds who I think is 100% trustworthy regarding legit items? Play another 8 years and hope one drops? Or.....

Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... and since none of us have an unlimited amount of gaming time.... then would you not be allowed to import a legitimate item into the game? If no, how would you suggest a IronSnob or a Snob go about acquiring the item (especially a very rare one) for use?

Make the best of what is available. The line "Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... " is a very dangerous one. This is EXACTLY how some players go around with their perfect APOS and perfect KSOH and two obs/zods at level 25 and consider themselves legit. That kind of thing leads the opposite direction of the variant way, and it is much more straightforward to present that concept in broad, simple terms than to make exceptions on a case by case basis.

The first question is within the realm of a normal Single Player game. The item(s) COULD drop and DO drop in the game. It is NOT a replacement. It is NOT an exception. It IS within the normal rules and play of the game.


Well, the exception in this case is that the rules of the game don't allow your SP character to get the item without getting it himself (that is essentially the definition of "single player", isn't it?). He could find it himself, but then he wouldn't need to be given it. In other words, the fact that it is a quest item isn't the specific hangup here, but rather the general case of importing the item.

When I think of gifts for Multiplayer Elitists, I think of what the "gift pool" contains. In Multiplayer, that would include ALL the items findable in Multiplayer games.

For Single Player Elitists then, in Single Player games shouldn't it include all the items findable in Singleplayer (including, *shudder*, SP Unique amulets)? Multiplayer unique items are those findable in multiplayer; single player unique items are those findable in single player.

I would agree to that, with two caveats. For one, *every* unique item is findable in single player, but some border on the realm of impossible. Clearly you would need to actually find the items with another character, and the rarity might be a consideration on how early you gift it. But the bigger problem, of course, is that there is no way to give the "gifts" in the first place (other than perhaps Cornerstone of the World in Hellfire).

This is not what I am asking. Import and use items that Jarulf says don't exist." Jarulf is INCORRECT in this case. The item (Armor of Gloom) DOES exist and DOES drop and SHOULD be allowable. That is what I'm asking.

Jarulf's Guide is not relevant to the rules of this variant, or any other I can think of. So it would not matter whether Jarulf's Guide says an item can or cannot drop. What would matter is that the item *does* drop so that you or someone else can acquire it legitimately and gift it to the elitist.

In closing, there's the question of playability/desirability. Without even a first birthday gift you'll be fighting naked and barehanded and shieldless for a long time. Eventually something might drop. Eventually. One of the reasons playing a Multiplayer Elitist ISN'T boring/tedious is that you can choose a pretty decent first birthday gift. After that it's pretty much just a question of your skills and tactics. I'd like to challenge others similarly, and have the rules reflect that also. The rules for Elitists are plenty challenging for Multiplayer games, even with the Birthday gifts. Let's challenge others playing Single Player Elitists with foes, not tedium. Let the SP Elitist rules be as close to the Multiplayer ones as possible. Multiplayer allows bday gifts; Single Player should also, IMO.

The concept of legitimacy may have out lived it's usefulness by about 5 years now, but it does not die easily. As a variant author, I sought to work within the rules of the game, allowing my variant to play and interact with other variants and normal characters played by those who were concerned with being legit. I would be very hesitant to include a rule that specifically goes against the most basic concepts of being legit in one of my variants, and I refuse to suggest that such a rule be added to a hosted variant whose author isn't around to comment.

But again, we are talking about a single player character here. None of us is ever going to meet this character in a game. So what I'm saying is that you should find the balance of rules that *you* want to play by, and go with that. If you want my personal opinion about what you are trying to do, I think the quest uniques would be fine once your character is past the point he would have earned them at. I can't really comment on the Hellfire specific stuff, simply because I've never played Hellfire. Those last two sentences, I suppose, are probably the only relevant things I've actually said in this thread. But at any rate, play it how you want, feel free to tell us how it goes (In fact, please do! We don't get enough D1 reports these days.), but don't expect those kind of things to be added to the original elitist rules because there probably won't be much support for such an addition.

[Attika]

I can see where you feel the illegitimacy of the items (using an item importer) makes the Single Player Elitist a non-viable variant. There's really no way to get items into the single player game without using an importer with the game set up as is presently (CoW wouldn't be a viable option as far as an IronSnob is concerned.)

Curiously, if someone wrote a program so that you could import legitimate multiplayer items that YOU YOURSELF HAD FOUND into single player games, would you then allow the Single Player Elitist to receive bday gifts or no?

"Make the best of what is available. The line "Since the items CAN be legitimately obtained IF you had an unlimited amount of gaming time.... " is a very dangerous one. This is EXACTLY how some players go around with their perfect APOS and perfect KSOH and two obs/zods at level 25 and consider themselves legit."

Wait a cottonpickin' minute here. There's a big difference between a "perfect APOS" and a "perfect Civerb's Cudgel". This reasoning is a bit of overkill, don't you think? In the way the item plays in a game, there simply is no difference between a Civerb's Cudgel you personally found and a Civerb's Cudgel that gets imported. Same for 10 of 10 Unique bows, 13 of 14 Unique Swords, 5 of 6 Unique Axes, etc. Would limiting import to just those items, which HAVE no "varying" or "perfect" stats satisfy your need for legitimacy? I'm guessing, probably not, because that really doesn't address the legitimacy issue at stake here. But your supporting argument (regarding the "perfect stats" APOS) also fails in that same regard. To claim that an item is illegitimate because it is "perfect" when there IS no difference at all between the stats of the two Unique items makes this very same argument fail as well.

"Well, the exception in this case is that the rules of the game don't allow your SP character to get the item without getting it himself (that is essentially the definition of "single player", isn't it?). "

Please don't do that. Don't make these trite attempts at humor when we're discussing something. OF COURSE that's essentially the definition of single player.

But essentially the definition of the Elitist variant ALLOWS Unique birthday gifts, doesn't it? (Read the rules! That is essentially one aspect of the definition of an "Elitist", isn't it?

See? It's annoying and somewhat demeaning.

I don't really care all that fired much, really. To me, if the items (found versus imported) play EXACTLY the same, then the game would play exactly the same as if you found the item yourself.

It just comes down to whether you wish to allow Single player elitists to receive birthday gifts. You'd have to use an item importer or someone would have to write a new program that would accomplish nearly the exact same thing same.

Yet if the item to be imported has the exact same stats ALL THE TIME, whether it is found or imported, and plays EXACTLY THE SAME whether it was found or imported, then . . . .

If item importing is NOT to be allowed in playing Single Player Elitists, that's fine, I can live with that. No biggie. But you've pretty much killed it as a single player variant. The rules you propose would create a dimension of tedium even most Ironmen would refuse to suffer (yours truly included), and of course IronSnobbing would be out of the question entirely.



Attika