GvG Build & Discussion - Split Training

[Lurker Wyrm]

A lot of those look like pretty standard builds for what you see these days. Wouldn't have expected Mind Shock or Windborne anymore, but I suppose they both still work. Don't suppose you caught who was on each team?

[DamadmOO]

Hmm. If i know which ppl are in eF then i can fill them in :P

I know that 'sliv' did first play the sin and then the mesmer. Jim I was the monk on the top team i think. Further i have no idea right now since i dun remember any of their other names :D

Note to self: next time take a screenie from the match i am watching :P

[Lurker Wyrm]

W/X
Hammer: 16 (+4); Str: 6; Tactics: 12 (+1)
Devastating, Crushing, Fierce, Burst of Aggression, Enraging Charge, "Watch Yourself!", Heal Sig, Res Sig

W/E
Axe: 16 (+4); Str: 10 (+1); Tactics: 10 (+1)
Shock, Eviscerate, Executioner's, Bull's Strike, Burst of Aggression, Enraging Charge, Heal Sig, Res Sig

P/X
Spear: 12 (+1); Command: 12 (+2); Leadership: 10 (+1); Motivation: 4
Song of Purification, Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!", "Stand Your Ground!", Vicious Attack, Harrier's Toss, Aggressive Refrain, Signet of Return

Mo/E
Prot: 12 (+1), DF: 14 (+2), Healing: 6
Blessed Light, Gift of Health, Reversal of Fortune, Holy Veil, Spirit Bond, GoLE, Mending Touch, Signet of Devotion

E/Mo
Water: 14 (+2); E Storage: 10 (+1); Heal: 9
Icy Shackles, Freezing Gust, GoLE, Armor of Mist, Blurred Vision, Healing Breeze, Heal Party, Res Sig

A/X
Dagger: 16 (+4); Crit Strikes: 13 (+1); Deadly: 4 (+1)
Shadow Prison, Black Spider Strike, Twisting Fangs, Black Lotus Strike, Horns of the Ox, Expose Defenses, Recall, Res Sig

R/Mo
Marks: 16 (+4); Exp: 9 (+1); Wilderness: 10 (+1); Prot: 5
Apply Poison, Burning, Savage, Distracting, Pin Down, Mending Touch, Natural Stride, Res Chant

Rt/Me
Restoration: 14 (+2); Spawning: 12; Inspiration: 3
Vengeful Weapon, Weapon of Remedy, Life, Mend Body and Soul, Ghostmirror Light, Recovery, Spirit Transfer, Inspired Hex

Wanted to use Crippling Anthem but the meta is going towards condition heavy so we need the added removal. If, after a few matches we find we don't need that much removal, para can switch to Crippling and monk can go ZB. Wanted to give the para a higher spear att, but can't really do so and still keep command at 12 (for the SYG duration); sup would only get spear up to 14 which isn't worth it imo (12 -> 16 very worth it, only 14 not really). When chars are standing still (which they often are while being spiked) they'll have +45 armor, which should be enough for the monk to stop a spike even without Infuse (just remember to precast SB when the indicator shows itself then RoF first, then BL). Not sure about ZB or BL on the monk, BL has better utility but ZB is better in pressure situations w/energy. During the last TA outing, I was in trouble as monk against hex heavy teams using ZB since NR couldn't be kept up reliably. Axe war can act as secondary flagger if need be. Ele flag runner doesn't have much in the way of spike potential but Frozen Burst can really mess with a team's movement, especially good at getting a warrior train off you while you go for the stand.

Have been watching quite a few matches where a resto rit does a pretty awesome job on split w/the 2 weapon spells and Life + Mend. Inspired is just there as a free hex removal every 20s. Kinda worried about the assassin, might rework the atts on that to provide more safety; it should keep Recall on the rit most, if not, all the time. Fox said Unguent was overkill with a healer around and that the build could use a snare, so the ranger is the same as before but with Pin Down instead of Unguent. Once the first couple of archers are out of the way, ranger can work on the Knights while the assassin spikes (and kills) the bodyguard and then Recalls out; ranger (or even rit) should aggro both knights at the same time to keep them off the assassin.

Classes that aren't using secondaries should still take one anyways just to throw off the opponents.

Hmm. If i know which ppl are in eF then i can fill them in

Err... I meant whether you knew what the team split was (i.e. 4/4, 4/3/1, etc.) and which players were splitting.

Edit: changed the war running stances, ele attributes.

[FoxBat]

I'm going to avoid totally ripping builds as we just go through 10 different ones until ending up with something not so effective. These are mostly nitpicks/alternatives so our players can just start off with Wyrms' bars, and can try some suggested skill alternatives within the same characters as appropriate through matches.

I'm not sure how widely it is know, but Recovery is still bugged. It acts like a nature ritual and reduces everyones (self and opponent) condition duration. The only part of our build that is significantly impacted by this is the ranger (Anthem of Flame should be unaffected at 2 seconds... then again you may want a major to push that up to the 12 leadership breakpoint for 3 seconds.), so it may still be useful in many situations. Could replace with weapon of warding or a pot like protective/generous, but its safer to have 2 spirits to use transfer with if that has to be on your bar. Wielder's boon could be somewhat of a replacement for that in said situation.

Trolls on the ranger is excessive when you have a healer with you, though having it on your bar gives the versatility to do a smaller split. If you generally want to stick to the 3-5 split for training purposes then pin down has many uses in a skirmish, though shadow prision should be enough to catch a fleeing (or charging) loner.

Light of Deliverance instead of heal party on an ele feels wierd, and no freezing gust/trident either. Guess I'm more used to water ele flaggers having a big role in freezing the enemy flagger in their tracks, but that may be too aggressive for a small flagstand team.

I've tried Burst of Agression on warriors in RA before and it is finicky to use. Frenzy has the versatility that you can stealthily use it for adren buildup every now and then, if you try to do that with burst and your target runs away, you have to forfeit your adrenaline. It also hurts when your spike messes up for some reason and you can't even unload a little extra pressure from your skills before the stance wears off and kills your adrenaline. It combos safer with rush since you aren't a big red target if you miss that last adrenaline to cancel out, and theoretically you can spike more often with a 13s stance and rush. Looks wierd but worth trying, and it's easily swappable between frenzy/sprint and BoA/rush.

[DamadmOO]

Err... I meant whether you knew what the team split was (i.e. 4/4, 4/3/1, etc.) and which players were splitting.

a 4/4 split. top4 and bottom4.

Tho their first match was against EW on burning isle. They got rolled really quick. Their next match you could really see the splitting going on and then suddenly their base team got beaten and their GL was killed just before they had the enemies GL down (it was at 10% left max)

[Lurker Wyrm]

I'm going to avoid totally ripping builds as we just go through 10 different ones until ending up with something not so effective. These are mostly nitpicks/alternatives so our players can just start off with Wyrms' bars, and can try some suggested skill alternatives within the same characters as appropriate through matches.

I'd rather you avoid any/all ripping, nitpicking and whatever else until you start coming up with actual alternatives, other than just saying "this would be nice with..." or "this works better with 5 chars running the same thing" or whatever else. If you have a problem with the build then come up with an alternative, don't just sit there and throw stones at it.

[FoxBat]

I did supply alternatives (this time) for everything but... the water ele. Which were just skill swaps and a major rune on the paragon, and not a ginormous difference. I'm just putting alternatives that players might try out at some later point.

But you got me on the ele, which seems pretty wrong. LoD is a waste with the elementalist's enormous energy reserves, as a flagger they can spam more heal parties in a shorter time and get back to flagging, and have plenty of energy to do it again when they return.

Here's a standard trident ele:

E/Mo
Water: 14 (+2); E Storage: 10 (+1); Heal: 9
Water Trident, Frozen Gust, GoLE, Armor of Mist, Blurred Vision, Healing Breeze, Heal Party, Res Sig

You use trident/gust to stop flaggers from capping, stop gankers that try to push in or escape, slow melee enemies at the flagstand when defense is needed, slow squishes when offense is needed, and catch a fleeing target when the team is in full retreat. A target is practically immobile under gust/trident combo which is why it's so popular on observer mode. If you want frozen burst, which is hard to use when you aren't the one being trained on, replace either blurred vision or res sig. If you are worried about hexes, sub in Convert Hexes for res sig which again, the flagger ele has the energy and running time to use, and will clean off an entire stack.

If you don't think that is enough spike/defense protection, then go back to the LoD or Healer's Boon flaggers you had earlier, because I don't see what LoD/veil are doing on an ele flagger.

Mo/E
Healing: 14 (12 +1 +1); Divine Favor: 12 (11 +1); Protection Prayers: 4; Air Magic: 5
Healer's Boon, Heal Party, Orison of Healing, Heal Other, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Storm Djinn's Haste, Purge Signet, Protective Spirit/Res Signet

After spamming a few heal parties you can focus swap and use purge signet to clean off a hex stack, then get back to running.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Posting run/ias stance alternatives for a war is pointless, anyone who's played a war is going to know the pros/cons of each. I had Rush in there for chasing people around, which is what it's best at. Using an ias outside a spike is give or take; anyone w/experience is going to start kiting immediately in which case your stance is wasted and anyone who just stands there and lets themself be attacked is going to die anyway. Swapped to Enraging to get the adrenaline boost so we can spike more often and wear the monks down faster.

Frenzy is outdated imo. Wars only need the ias for spiking someone down and if it's an adrenal spike your adrenaline will be low afterwards anyways so it's not like Burst is crippling you. If you try to use Frenzy outside a spike then any decent team will notice that and start beating on you. Enraging will make up for the adren. loss after a spike.

I don't see what LoD/veil are doing on an ele flagger.

SF complained about not having a hex counter on the flagger, that's why Veil is there. LoD is there to supply supplimental healing. Yeah, HP can do the same thing and LoD is probably better on a monk than an ele, but I want to see how it works with an ele. Can change it after the second match if need be. Would rather have Frozen Burst on the flagger than Freezing Gust since Burst has the same recharge but is 3/4 cast and can hit multiple targets, which is better for getting people off you.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Two builds I saw today that seem pretty solid:

Used by: Zero Files Remaining [LaG]

W/Mo
Bull's Charge, Sever, Gash, Final, Frenzy, Heal Sig, Mending Touch, Res Sig

W/?
Backbreaker, Crushing Blow, Flail, Res Sig, Rush, Protector's Strike, ? Enraging Charge?, ? Bull's Strike?

E/Mo
Blinding Surge, Lightning Orb, Lightning Strike, Gale, Air Attunement, GoLE, ?, ?

Burning Arrow ranger

Me/E
GoLE, Migraine, Conjure Phantasm, Images of Remorse, Leech Signet, Mantra of Persistence, Spirit of Failure, Res Sig

ZB monk

RC monk

E/Rt
Icy Shackles, Freezing Gust, Ice Spikes, Blurred Vision, Armor of Mist, Weapon of Warding, Wielder's Boon, ?

Obviously missing a few skills...


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Used by: Batter Powered Best Friend [Vibe]

W/E
Eviscerate, Executioner's, Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, Shock, Rush, Frenzy, Res Sig

W/Mo
Dragon Slash, Sever, Gash, Sun and Moon Slash, Protector's Strike, Rush, Frenzy, Res Sig

P/W
Barbed Spear, Blazing Spear, Harrier's Toss, Crippling Anthem, Bladeturn Refrain, "Go for the Eyes!", Aggressive Refrain, Res Sig

P/W
Cruel Spear, Barbed Spear, Spear of Lightning, Harrier's Toss, Anthem of Flame, "Watch Yourself!", Blazing Finale, Signet of Return

Me/E
Expel Hexes, Diversion, Spiritual Pain, Shatter Enchant, Gale, GoLE, Storm Djinn's Haste, Res Sig

R/Mo
standard Burning Arrow

Mo/Me
RC, Mending Touch, RoF, Gift of Health, Holy Veil, Prot Spirit, SoA, Hex Breaker

Mo/Me
LoD, RoF, Words of Comfort, Infuse, Prot Spirit, Holy Veil, Hex Breaker, Purge Signet

Both should split easily (more or less) but aren't really designed for it.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Before we settle on the [Vibe] build, I want to just throw another one out there that's very similar. It's been run for a few days (as far as I can tell) by Kefi Pahllkari [PAL]. Unfortunately, I didn't think to copy the thing down until today so I'm missing some skills. Hopefully, they'll be playing again tomorrow and I'll be able to copy the rest of the skills I'm missing.

A/W
Moebieus Strike, Death Blossom, Leaping Mantis Sting, Exhausting Assault, Dash, Impale, Flurry, Critical Eye

W/A
Devastating Hammer, Crushing Blow, Frenzy, Fierce Blow, Enraging Charge, Bull's Strike, Hammer Bash, Res Sig

P/Me
Aggressive Refrain, Vicious Attack, Spear of Lightning, Barbed Spear, Anthem of Flame, Power Leak, Crippling Anthem, Signet of Return

P/W
Anthem of Flame, Aggressive Refrain, Spear of Lightning, Disrupting Throw, "It's Just a Flesh Wound!", "Watch Yourself!", Signet of Return

R/Mo
Nature's Renewal, Tranquility, Whirling Defense, Dust Trap, Barbed Trap, Oath Shot, Res Sig

Mo/W
Mend Condition, Gift, RoF, ZB, Soldier's Defense

Mo/W
LoD, Infuse, Sig of Rejuvination, Soldier's Defense

Rt/E
Weapon of Remedy, Soothing Memories, Mend Body and Soul, Protective was Kaolai, Storm Djinn's Haste, GoLE, Weapon of Warding

Obviously I'm missing the most from the monks, but you should get the idea of who's doing what. One reason I like this build more than the one we ran Sunday is because it has better split ability. The rit, war and sin were the ones who went off to take out gankers and the ranger acted as temp flag runner. The rit was the main flagger. Also, as the game went on they had the assassin run the flags (might have been because of lag) and I'm assuming some of that was to do with the fact that it was the one without a res.