RB Pitboss #2 - Postgame Discussion Thread

[Jowy]

I'll have more comments when I'm done reading the threads, didn't expect the game to end yet. Anyways, even without reading Byzantine and Ottomans threads yet, I believe I made the right choices diplomatically. Afterall, Byzantine and India were even friendlier with eachother than I thought back then, they had already talked about splitting my lands once they're ready to expand I think the bigger problem was my lack of civ knowledge compared to the other players. I've learned alot from this game and I can easily spot most of the mistakes now. Also, after the CoW attack was a failure, I lost a good chunk of motivation. I never even asked Ottomans for help there.

Btw, I actually really wanted to be friends with Sullla and Regoarrar in this game. I'd been visiting Sullla's website for years and looked up to him (and although I was dissapointed to see my "hero" in action, I still have alot of respect for you regardless of my comments) and I was rooting for Rego in RBP1 and he's a great friendly guy. It just wasn't meant to be!

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, I'm sure I've said things before, but my postgame posts might be a bit hidden in the lurker thread.

[regoarrarr]

Afterall, Byzantine and India were even friendlier with eachother than I thought back then, they had already talked about splitting my lands once they're ready to expand

@Jowy - From my perspective (and others might chime in here), but at that stage of the game, EVERYONE is saying that to EVERYONE. I think Sullla mentioned this already upthread, but at least to me, that's just how the early game goes.

It's not that I'm being disingenuous (at least IMO), but at that stage, nobody knows what's goign to happen in the next 20-50-100 turns so you kind of keep your bases open. It's only through further cooperation (like a resource gift to a friend in need!!! ) that bonds are strengthened and your true allies are known.

PS judging on my performances in PB1 and 2, you MAY not want to follow my advice

[Whosit]

Exceptions? What, you don't think the meth'd up hippo comment that was made in your thread was fair????

Yeah, me neither.

No, no, that's one of the fair ones. Gotta love that pungent weed. And, um, being ... a hippo ...?

I think that someone once questioned my integrity (either in a lurker or player thread, can't remember now, probably for the best), which of course I object to.

I wonder if I'm an outlier here, but I never really had much contact with Sullla and Speaker. We exchanged e-mails a bit early in the game, mainly regarding open borders (haven't read their thread much yet; sometimes they were not quick in replying to me, which I took as a slight. Haven't checked if they were just busy or were intentionally brushing me off). Then I declared war on them. Figured there wasn't much to say after that.

Oh, one of my many other errors: I didn't realize until much too late just how many islands were out there. For a long time, I thought each civ had one big oblong island offshore and that that was it, so I didn't realize how much space Korea had to expand into until, well, I was dead.

I suppose, in the end, I could have held onto my cities in Centralia and tried to play on, but I figured it wouldn't be long until someone got a boat and just stomped me. Dunno.

[Speaker]

I suppose, in the end, I could have held onto my cities in Centralia and tried to play on, but I figured it wouldn't be long until someone got a boat and just stomped me. Dunno.

Approximately 5 turns and those cities would have been ours, give or take. The units to attack were already on the island. When we discovered you had gifted them to Nakor, it was one of our most angry moments of the game.

[Sullla]

Well hey, what great timing! Just had a chance to read the loooooong Whosit thread (which is really great stuff). Some longish comments:

- Thought it was interesting that LiPing posted that she had no idea how to play beyond the maceman era, and was expecting to lose the game (just have fun in the meantime). That's more or less the mindset we were guessing based on a pick of Aggressive Rome!

- I have no idea what LiPing was doing diplomatically at the start of the game with Korea. Something about declare war and then sign peace? I don't get it. Can't say I blame Korea for wanting a longterm NAP with Aggressive Rome a mere 8 tiles away, or LiPing not wanting to sign the same thing in the reverse role!

- Don't know much about the early negotiations with Korea, although I feel a little uncomfortable reading about how LiPing felt no compunction about signing an NAP and then immediately breaking it at the first opportunity. I'm glad that Whosit agreed to honor the agreements signed. Honestly, in retrospect, Whosit really pulled the wool over on Korea here! I would have insisted on much stronger NAP clauses in their place, or had nothing at all signed and been prepared for hostility from the outset.

- That whole NAP-breaking war thing, followed by an immediate peace, was just weird. I... don't even know how to comment on that one. Other than to say I don't think I would have played it that way!



- All that said, Korea's decision to move an unprotected settler next to Roman territory, WHILE AT WAR, was a totally insane risk. I don't know what plako was thinking there. Sure, you had just agreed to make up and sign peace, but that was waving the red flag in front of the bull! I am impressed by your restraint, Whosit.

- I think that the tech path followed was good for an early Praetorian rush game. Of course, the down side was not having Pottery tech until Turn ~65, so no granaries (despite being Expansive) and no early cottages to play with. Which would have negative consequences in the long term, naturally. (Down to 40% science before attacking Korea wasn't a good sign.) I think Whosit did a great job of playing to the strengths of his leader/civ here, just that at some point (in a No Tech Trading game) you have to swap over to a commerce emphasis. I'm not sure if that ever really happened!

- I still maintain, and will always maintain, that it was a mistake to build more Praetorians and galleys to go attack my team - while Rome was already backwards in tech and facing another enemy nearby in Korea - rather than use that time to build more workers, settlers, granaries, and libraries. Not sure how serving as the attack dog for the "Coalition of the Willing" served to make Rome a stronger civ. But that argument has been debated a million times already, so I'll say no more on that score.

- athlete made this point in an email, which I agree with: Whosit was too pessimistic about the odds in a Praetorian vs. Korean archer matchup. Praetorians absolutely steamroll archers, and Aggressive Praetorians just make that into a joke. Even axes stand no chance without the Shock promotion. There was no need for so much anxiety and hesitation there!

While I am dedicated to knocking team Sullla/Speaker down a notch, it's really coming at a bad time for me. If I didn't have to divert my production and troops, I'm pretty sure that I could overwhelm plako with sheer numbers. Of quality troops, no less.

He's down to Seoul and Wonsan for troop production. I could be wrong, but I imagine that Pusan, wherever it is, is not a major factor. On the other hand, they do have at least one Galley to shuttle units around.

I would have Imperial Center, Carida, Kuat (as it matures), and even Nar Shaddaa to produce units. Carida alone will be able to produce 2 Praetorians every 5 turns. Kuat would be able to do something similar, and even Imperial Center's production is nothing to sneeze at. Nar Shaddaa might resort to Axemen or something, but those aren't useless. So, even if they whip their cities into oblivion, I'd be able to roll over them like an avalanche.

However, I'll have to devote a significant number or resources to the other fight. I definitely have to take another city. Preferably Seoul, but I'm not sure I could handle it unless I can go all out, so Wonsan will probably have to go first.

If I were able to take Seoul, though, I'd feel more comfortable signing peace since Wonsan would be trapped.

- Wow... talk about competing priorities! I heard some posters claim that Whosit's attack on India didn't really cost him very much, but that doesn't seem true to me. The price for attacking our team was letting Korea live, by signing that long peace deal with the NAP attached. Well, we all know how that turned out... Whosit, you were a great team player, *TOO* good of a team player, as joining up in the big attack ultimately left your real enemy alive, and contributed to your eventual demise. Keeping those Praetorians at home and eliminating Korea had to have been a better play. (With benefit of hindsight, of course!)

- Given the general poor state of the Roman economy, I'm not sure going for Aesthetics/Literature was a good tech move, even with marble. Sure, the Great Library was great and all, but those beakers could have gotten you Monarchy tech instead, which would have been way more useful. And the Parthenon probably wasn't worth it, marble or no.

Well, I had some awful dreams last night. Everyone else had gotten to Nationalism and were drafting units out like crazy, while I was still in the Classical Age with a backwards economy. No way am I going to let that happen! Also, Team Spullla whupped all of our butts in the war. I really hope that doesn't happen.

OK, that was really funny! In your dreams, Whosit?



- It's also worth pointing out that attacking India cost Whosit his planned Globe City to Inca - as Whosit fully acknowledged at the time, to his credit. The need to rebuild the Roman army (after gifting those Praetorians to Jowy) then further delayed the whole commerce/teching plan even further. Not trying to criticize Whosit's decision to attack again, but the opportunity cost was definitely NOT minor.

Operation: Destroy Recalcitrant Enemies Absolutely Dead (D.R.E.A.D.)

Don't you just love backronyms?

Whosit, your thread is awesome. It's almost enough to forgive your team from attacking us in this game. Almost.

- Well, my diplomacy may have mostly sucked in this game, but we did correctly deduce that you guys (Rome, Greece, Holy Rome, Ottomans) really wanted to sign peace with us as soon as Dantski changed sides. So we did no such thing. Nice to see one assumption turn out correct...

- Whosit, you said at one point that your cities had to remain small due to lack of happiness resources. While you're partly right that the map could have given you some more happiness resources, the real problem was lacking Monarchy tech (Hereditary Rule) and Calendar tech until very late in the game. With all of your military units, HR civic would have been a giant help. I know we were shocked when we finally got Alphabet tech and saw that you were lacking Monarchy tech. For all the value you pulled from Aesthetics/Literature, Monarchy might have been a better option.

- Reading the thread, it felt like you had no real desire to attack Inca, yet went ahead with doing so anyway because athlete wanted to do so. Considering the hostility you had from Korea, right on your doorstep, that probably was a mistake. Once again, I think you were too good of a friend to your allies, Whosit! Sometimes, you have to say no even to your friends, or else they can pull you into some very bad situations. (We definitely ignored a lot of Dantski's requests, for example. Only one team can win the game in the end....)

I have to admit that the more I read our Double Move rules, the less sense that they make.

Anyway, I want to state on the "public" record that it's not my intent to bend the rules in my favor. My understanding of the rules leads me to believe that I have a legitimate claim to playing the first half of the turn, and I am trying to follow up that claim since being able to do some things first, such as use promotions, is pretty beneficial.

Hear, hear!

And of course there were some tactical mistakes in the war against slaze, which I don't need to belabor by going over again here. On the plus side, I want to emphasize that Whosit's thread was immensely entertaining to read through - truly funny stuff in there. Ummm, and yes, a little schitzophrenic, which only made it that much more fun to the lurkers!

I'm sure you learned a ton from this game, and hope it turned out to be fun despite the ending.

[Jabah]

My biggest mistake was, as many have said, joining the CotW and letting Korea off the hook. I really underestimated them, and I want to compliment plako and Broker (where they can see it) on their comeback.

I think it was even earlier than that, you probably should have whip 3/4 preatorian/axe asap before Korea had a chance to get a galley out or at least connect copper.

Also in the COW, you probably shoud 'just' have sold or trade your preat to HRE or Danstki (for settler/worker) to save your expense (and building 4 boats).

[Jowy]

Whosit, how'd you get Blue Marble to work with pitboss?

[Whosit]

@Sullla: Well, it's nice to know that my misadventures were entertaining ones. I even forgot about half the things you brought up!

Since LiPing isn't here, I'll explain her idea about the war/peace thing. She believed that if two parties really wanted an iron-clad NAP, they would declare war on each other every 10 turns and immediately sign peace in order to get an in-game enforced peace. It's very unorthodox (which is why I think it's so clever), although it also requires a degree of trust. Oh, and it'll mess with trade-route value, though I don't think that she realized that at the time. Obviously, most other people aren't so hot on the idea.

The NAP-Break war ... even now, I'm not sure if I should have just held back, or pressed forward. Though I suppose if I had continued with the war, I would have cemented a reputation as a deal-breaking, dishonost monster.

Point on Pottery, of course. I think it took me half the game to fully realize the implications of no-tech trading (this was my first MP game, and my first no-tech-trading game, too). It's also possible that the early gold in my capital fooled me into thinking that my economy was stronger than it really was.

Thinking a little bit more now, or rather, musing (and maybe because I'm reading Outliers), well, I still made many mistakes, but I wonder if any single mistake cost me the game, or if it was the combination of all those mistakes. Well, I guess that's usually the case. Anyway. Thanks for the comments, Sullla. Hopefully I'll see you in another game someday.

I think it was even earlier than that, you probably should have whip 3/4 preatorian/axe asap before Korea had a chance to get a galley out or at least connect copper.

Also in the COW, you probably shoud 'just' have sold or trade your preat to HRE or Danstki (for settler/worker) to save your expense (and building 4 boats).

Well, keep in mind, I had no idea that their offshore island had copper. Part of the reason I was in such a hurry to found Kuat (and the reason why I broke the NAP in that real short war) was because I thought they were going for the Copper up north. Also, the NAP, but I guess I can't say I wasn't willing to break it. Just not willing to follow through with the back-stab.

Whosit, how'd you get Blue Marble to work with pitboss?

Umm... I installed it? The only thing I can't get it to work for is PBEM4, because of the mod, I think.

[Jowy]

Umm... I installed it? The only thing I can't get it to work for is PBEM4, because of the mod, I think.

Ah nevermind then, I thought there's some kind of a trick to get it working since mine always unloads when trying to enter a pitboss game.

[Sullla]

Took a look at Dantski's short thread:

- I'm kind of amused that Dantski wrote in his very first post: "I plan on signing very few NAP's this game to try and leave myself open to opportunistic attacks on others," only to tie his hands with NAPs multiple times later on.

- Despite the comments, I still don't really understand the Julius Caesar and Mali picks. If you wanted rapid expansion with skirmishers for early defense, wouldn't Joao or Catherine of Mali have been a better pick (?)

- Although some of the lurkers were critical, I don't think it was necessarily a bad play to sign NAPs with India and Holy Rome in the early game. Dantski could have used those NAP to expand like a mad fiend, plopping down aggressive cities everywhere with skirmishers and then daring his neighbors to do anything about it. (This could have worked really well with a Cre/Imp Cathy pick!) The problem wasn't with signing the NAPs, it came when Dantski didn't use that window of opportunity to leverage his Imperialistic trait. It's a bad sign with Fin/Phi India is out-expanding your Imperialistic civ!

- While Dantski's land was still very fertile, there's no question that it wasn't as good as the land that we had to the north. I guess in retrospect another river or two (or fewer rivers in our land) would have been better. But I know full well that you can't get everything perfect when designing the map! The one we had was great.

- Gold or no, I think that Kumbi Saleh was a weakish location for a third city. It was surrounded by jungle, required tons of worker improvement just to connect by road, was hard to defend in the early game, and most importantly had no food bonuses! Just a sugar tile while couldn't be used until Calendar, a million turns away, and a jungle unirrigated rice. In order to work the gold tile, the city had to give up any kind of fast growth. There were probably some much better locations elsewhere.

- I'm still not sure why Dantski didn't take it to Holy Rome immediately as punishment for the aggressive Krondor spot. Signing those NAPs really ties your hands...

- I'm.... surprised.... at how Dantski chose to play the diplomacy. With Nakor settling aggressively on his doorstep, and an agreement in place with India not to settle additional encroaching cities with one another, Dantski immediately decided to ask Jowy about attacking our team on first contact. I don't understand that one! We establish a friendly rapport with Dantski, and he tries to poison other teams against us on first contact? Huh?

- Really disappointed to see that Dantski did a 180 degree turn on my team the instant he met Jowy. Just... sad and disappointed. (Yes, let's ignore the team who's settling aggressively on our doorstep to go after the team with whom we have the best relationship and no grounds for conflict!)

- Giving away another contested barb city location to Holy Rome "for their help against Sulla" was another dumb play. Dantski gave away all the disputed land to the southeast just for the purposes of attacking my team. Hope it was worth it...

Disagree here, IW helps me attack, gives me info on Spullan iron and also allows me to get my 3rd city properly up and running. It also leads to other techs. HBR merely gets me HA's which can be countered fairly easily and it takes me a long time to get. Considering we're self researching this game, HBR is a giant waste of beakers in my opinion

- This would be MP inexperience speaking, I'm afraid!

Personally my expansion has ceased utterly, I am still with 4 cities with no 5th planned. Currently I'm heading to Monarchy but it'll be a long time before I get it (20+turns).

- I'm not sure this needs commentary, aside from "that's not how to play an Imperialistic leader" and "we weren't lying when we said Ancient Age wars were counter-productive."

Then the spoiler thread went dark, and that was the end of posting. I said at the time that Dantski's decision to attack was foolish, and I stand by the same comments in retrospect. Plowing all of your production for two dozen turns into a huge army of axemen just doesn't work very well in a No Tech Trading game. Even if my team had been eliminated, Dantski would never have caught up to the tech leaders (and probably would have been the odd man out in a future war, since Jowy/athlete/Whosit/Nakor were all pretty tight with one another). As for the decision to switch sides, it was great for my team but almost certainly the wrong move overall. Once you commit to a huge gamble attack like that, you have to go through with it to the finish. Building all those axes and then never getting anything out of them was a deathblow to Dantski's chances to become a major power.

Even at the end of the game, we never really trusted Dantski much at all. It was an alliance of convenience on both sides. That's a shame, but I doubt anyone in the game would have much affection or trust for a team that switched sides in such dramatic fashion earlier. Oh well. Thanks for your help in the war against Holy Rome, Dantski!