Brick by Brick (Spoiler Alert!)

[Merovech]

The fur isn't a bad tile, it's just not a good tile. I'd rate it as worse than a riverside grassland cottage and better than a non-riverside grassland cottage, but even that is debatable. Actually, now that I think about it, it's better than a riverside plains cottage, but that's not that great. Until you need the happy, I think you'd actually be much better off mining it. A 1/3/3 tile is pretty decent.

[Catwalk]

So just to summarize again, we've got Mansa Musa of India (Old Harry), Suryavarman of Byzantium (Serdoa), Willem of Mongolia (Azza), and Pacal of Inca (TheHumanHydra). I'm surprised Old Harry missed Huayna Capac.

Mansa Musa makes sense, and actually has a lot of synergy with India. This lets him go for Bronze Working right away for chopping (more efficient with FW) and slavery (much more efficient early on with SPI). It also lets him pursue an early religion as he can revolt into it for free. So Serdoa and ourselves (who both have Mysticism) are somewhat discouraged from taking an early religion, knowing that Harry has a large incentive to take one.

I'm also surprised we apparently got the best combination, seeing as we picked last. I think it's quite clear from the picks we'll be facing large forking cavalry stacks at some point and need to be prepared.

Pacal of Inca was also landed in PBEM27, although there it happened due to the #1 player picking Pacal and noone else wanting Inca after that. India as first pick made good sense, so did Willem. Sury was a little more experimental, Pacal would have been the conventional pick. But yes, very fortunate for us.

Can you explain more about the Fur tile? I wouldn't want to be working it right at the start, but slightly later on (say, when we're getting into the more expensive Classical techs), it would appear to be about as good as or better than a pair of scientists, but only tying up one citizen and half-paying for him in food to boot. Hunting need not be an early tech, though.

I was mainly commenting on Azza picking a Hunting/Wheel civ. That suggests that he wants to camp the fur tile right away, which would be a weak start. I do think it's worth working later on, and unless we get a spare fur somewhere close by we will likely want to camp it. Mining it might be slightly better (depending on our needs), but the happiness is the main objective.

Commenting on the rest a bit later, heading out. Merovech, are you my dedlurkerlurker?

[Catwalk]

I agree about skipping the Oracle. I think we'll have to see more of the map before making a decision about the Great Lighthouse, and the strategic situation will dictate whether we can go for the Mausoleum.

Agreed, no decision needs to be made until the first worker is done (at the very earliest). But if we do want to race for a wonder it's good to decide around that time.

I cautiously agree about the junk wonders, but I don't want to spam them (I don't know why we would need the Great Wall, for instance. I guess if we really have nothing else to build).

The Great Wall is rapidly turning into one of my favourite wonders. It's super cheap (50 hammers with stone), and it gives you 2 culture and 2 GPP. Usually noone wants to build it, so you have time to set up a lot of failgold in several cities. Effectively this lets you run super wealth builds at a time where income becomes tight and you might find yourself without good production items (low military needs on a large map with two opponents who are slow starters, workers/settlers both halt your growth and most buildings aren't needed). I also like the GG boost, if you're ever invaded you get very nice compensation while fighting in your own lands. The spy GPP is what puts most people off. I'm not too fussed, I pollute GPP pools left and right. As long as you make sure to complete the GW in a city with several other GPP sources, the risk of getting a great spy is minimal. By the time you finish the Great Wall you will have already gotten your first great person, and the second one will take a while. By this time, a great spy can be used just fine for a golden age if you have one or more civics switches to make. I think the GW is highly underrated, the low cost makes it a good investment if you have stone.

We can probably get the Hanging Gardens if we swing by Math early on the way to get the Mausoleum.

The problem with HG is that it's somewhat popular, and its value depends heavily on how many cities you have. If you build it with 6-7 cities, it has poor payoff. You want to wait until you have 8-10 cities, preferrably with better happiness too. And by this time others will be making a bid for it too.

My favourite junk wonder to pick up would be the Shwedagon Paya. In a game where religion has no effect on diplomacy, we might as well run Free Religion for +10% science everywhere (though I suppose you'll make me run Organized Religion instead. Fair enough), and we wouldn't need to worry about teching Theology. Like I said, though, it's a junk wonder; no need to concern ourselves about it.

I think SP is only worthwhile if you're planning on founding multiple religions. It's not a cheap wonder, and the effect is weak if all you get is +10% science. Remember, you have to revolt to get it. If you do have a religion in most cities, I do think that OR is commonly a better choice. With 2-3 religions per city FR starts looking really good, that's what I'm trying to do in PBEM42.

Pet wonder - I don't know, maybe Notre Dame (how valuable is that one considered)? We might need the Pikes for defence anyway.

I'd say it's rated lowly, as is Engineering. Maybe it's slightly more value on this map, due to the threat of Cataphracts. At this time happiness is also a lesser concern typically, you won't get it early enough to really matter. On the other hand, I think it's likely to be rated lowly. And as for all doubler wonders, failgold is also a good investment. Most doubler wonders are worth going for if you don't have better uses for the hammers.

Pyramids - maybe if we have Stone; I like it a lot, but it's a rather large hammer investment for its time, and by no means a must-have. The ability to switch into Police State when threatened is interesting.

If you're being threatened, Nationhood is what you need. Police State is better suited for a planned buildup, and even so I think it's weak compared with the alternatives. Hereditary Rule and Representation are both great for handling whip and draft complaints, and Universal Suffrage gives you an alternative to running Slavery while maintaining emergency rush measures.

How about this: we consider the Pyramids a goal if we have Stone, the Great Lighthouse a goal if we have lots of coast, and the Mausoleum our general goal; we can branch out to other wonders from that "top end" tech path as the situation allows. How does that sound?

I'm still wary of Pyramids, as I don't see us running that many specialists. We're not PHI, and with FIN we get great returns on cottages. Great Lighthouse is indeed highly dependent on the shape of the map, although it's generally good. In PBEM37 it's otherworldly good, almost all cities can be put on the coast with a little effort.

[TheHumanHydra]

The Great Wall is rapidly turning into one of my favourite wonders. It's super cheap (50 hammers with stone), and it gives you 2 culture and 2 GPP. Usually noone wants to build it, so you have time to set up a lot of failgold in several cities. Effectively this lets you run super wealth builds at a time where income becomes tight and you might find yourself without good production items (low military needs on a large map with two opponents who are slow starters, workers/settlers both halt your growth and most buildings aren't needed). I also like the GG boost, if you're ever invaded you get very nice compensation while fighting in your own lands. The spy GPP is what puts most people off. I'm not too fussed, I pollute GPP pools left and right. As long as you make sure to complete the GW in a city with several other GPP sources, the risk of getting a great spy is minimal. By the time you finish the Great Wall you will have already gotten your first great person, and the second one will take a while. By this time, a great spy can be used just fine for a golden age if you have one or more civics switches to make. I think the GW is highly underrated, the low cost makes it a good investment if you have stone.

I pollute too, unless I'm deliberately trying a Great Person-dependent strategy in single-player. How do you set up fail gold? Like, I know you make multiple cities build the wonder, but how do you do that? Also, is that considered okay (I mean, you wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't, but it seems kind of abusive)?

The problem with HG is that it's somewhat popular, and its value depends heavily on how many cities you have. If you build it with 6-7 cities, it has poor payoff. You want to wait until you have 8-10 cities, preferrably with better happiness too. And by this time others will be making a bid for it too.

I thought you put it under junk wonders ... well, I'm not that concerned about it anyway. We'll get it if we're in a position to get it.

I think SP is only worthwhile if you're planning on founding multiple religions. It's not a cheap wonder, and the effect is weak if all you get is +10% science. Remember, you have to revolt to get it. If you do have a religion in most cities, I do think that OR is commonly a better choice. With 2-3 religions per city FR starts looking really good, that's what I'm trying to do in PBEM42.

Well, that's why it's a junk wonder! Maybe the +10% science thing is better in single-player, where it basically reduces the difficulty by a whole level along the most important axis, research (if I understand the handicaps correctly).

I'd say it's rated lowly, as is Engineering. Maybe it's slightly more value on this map, due to the threat of Cataphracts. At this time happiness is also a lesser concern typically, you won't get it early enough to really matter. On the other hand, I think it's likely to be rated lowly. And as for all doubler wonders, failgold is also a good investment. Most doubler wonders are worth going for if you don't have better uses for the hammers.

Okay, good to know. How do you suggest we defend against Cataphracts, anyway (as well as Azza's super-promoted normal Knights)?

If you're being threatened, Nationhood is what you need. Police State is better suited for a planned buildup, and even so I think it's weak compared with the alternatives. Hereditary Rule and Representation are both great for handling whip and draft complaints, and Universal Suffrage gives you an alternative to running Slavery while maintaining emergency rush measures.

Well, you can't get Nationhood in 500 BC with a wonder, can you? Obviously Police State is better for a prolonged buildup, in which case you probably don't need it, but when you're seriously threatened, every little bit helps, especially when it can be run alongside Slavery (and enhances it, increasing the food-to-hammers conversion rate even further).

I'm still wary of Pyramids, as I don't see us running that many specialists. We're not PHI, and with FIN we get great returns on cottages. Great Lighthouse is indeed highly dependent on the shape of the map, although it's generally good. In PBEM37 it's otherworldly good, almost all cities can be put on the coast with a little effort.

I guess we'll just have to see what the map(-maker) gives us!

[Catwalk]

I pollute too, unless I'm deliberately trying a Great Person-dependent strategy in single-player. How do you set up fail gold? Like, I know you make multiple cities build the wonder, but how do you do that? Also, is that considered okay (I mean, you wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't, but it seems kind of abusive)?

Yes and no. It is definitely allowed, and it's definitely an abuse of mechanics. I wouldn't mind a ban on it, but without a specific ban it is definitely a strategy to employ IMO. The mechanic is that you can only have a wonder in the production queue of a single city. But you can remove it from the queue just fine, without losing any hammers by doing so. That lets you "build" it in another city. The important implication here is that you can only be producing failgold (for any single wonder) in one city at a time. So if you want to earn failgold on TGW, you can only do that in one city at a time for any given turn. National wonders are excellent for this as they're cheap and you are in no hurry to complete them.

The problem with HG is that it's somewhat popular, and its value depends heavily on how many cities you have. If you build it with 6-7 cities, it has poor payoff. You want to wait until you have 8-10 cities, preferrably with better happiness too. And by this time others will be making a bid for it too.

I thought you put it under junk wonders ... well, I'm not that concerned about it anyway. We'll get it if we're in a position to get it.

It's kind of in between. It's difficult to get it late enough to be a valuable wonder, and I think it's a bit overrated personally.

Well, that's why it's a junk wonder! Maybe the +10% science thing is better in single-player, where it basically reduces the difficulty by a whole level along the most important axis, research (if I understand the handicaps correctly).

Junk wonders have to be cheap, though And it costs 301 at Quick speed, that's a sizable investment. With 2-3 religions per city, I think it's pretty good.

I'd say it's rated lowly, as is Engineering. Maybe it's slightly more value on this map, due to the threat of Cataphracts. At this time happiness is also a lesser concern typically, you won't get it early enough to really matter. On the other hand, I think it's likely to be rated lowly. And as for all doubler wonders, failgold is also a good investment. Most doubler wonders are worth going for if you don't have better uses for the hammers.

Okay, good to know. How do you suggest we defend against Cataphracts, anyway (as well as Azza's super-promoted normal Knights)?

1) Make sure we know what Serdoa is up to
2) Make sure to get pikes if we know cataphracts are en route the next 10t or so
3) Make sure we're not behind economically
Last point most important one IMO. If you're wealthy, you can do anything.

If you're being threatened, Nationhood is what you need. Police State is better suited for a planned buildup, and even so I think it's weak compared with the alternatives. Hereditary Rule and Representation are both great for handling whip and draft complaints, and Universal Suffrage gives you an alternative to running Slavery while maintaining emergency rush measures.

Well, you can't get Nationhood in 500 BC with a wonder, can you? Obviously Police State is better for a prolonged buildup, in which case you probably don't need it, but when you're seriously threatened, every little bit helps, especially when it can be run alongside Slavery (and enhances it, increasing the food-to-hammers conversion rate even further).

If you go for Pyramids, you set yourself up to run considerable specialists. Jumping out of that for a military bonus doesn't seem worthwhile to me, and I have never seen that used with a Pyramids strategy. Especially without SPI, each civic switch is costly if you lose a turn.

[TheHumanHydra]

Just one quick question, since the save was sent to me tonight (though do to technical issues I won't be able to play till tomorrow - see the tech thread): any objections to Worker first?

[Catwalk]

Did you play yet? Tried to respond earlier, but minor net issues kept bugging me. This is what I had typed up:

No objections. Is it a warrior or scout start? For warrior start I suggest going SW (hill vision), for scout start I suggest going W => NE (hills to the west you can spot followed by hill vision). Important note: You cannot get 4 base hammers for the EXP worker bonus anywhere. It looks like there's nothing to do about that, as I'm not seeing any plains hills in the fog.

Thinking about it, maybe explore east instead. Settling either E or NE are viable alternatives, in case a resource is lurking over there. The fur is a non-factor, and river health also matters little IMO. Settling NE gives you another 3-4 forests in your BFC, including the one your settler is standing on. You also get to farm the wheat 1t sooner. The more I think about it, the better I like NE whether you find more resources over there or not.

[TheHumanHydra]

Turn 0 report:

Due to our technical difficulties, BRick played the turn for me according to my instructions through Google chat. Thank you, BRick! He sent me pictures along the way to show what our units had discovered. The start:



Scout start! Keeping with Cat's thought of moving NE no matter what, I no longer needed to send the Scout that way, so I sent him 1S, then 1W just to make sure we shouldn't be moving in that direction instead. He revealed:




I asked BRick, and it turns out Seven's is a fantasy map script (resources can appear on tiles they wouldn't normally, like Dyes on plains or Furs on grassland hills [I think?]). I'm sure Catwalk and Merovech knew that, but maybe some other lurkers didn't.

In keeping with Catwalk's suggestion, I moved the Settler 1NE:



And settled in place:



BRick knew you guys would ask, so he let me know that those water tiles to the north are salt-water. I also asked, and he said those tiles to the south-west next to the water in the fog are not fresh-water. So we've got ocean on at least two sides. I think the Great Lighthouse is a go. There are also a lot of rivers around here, which will be good for cottaging, and plenty of hills for production. This was my reaction when I saw the Pigs one tile outside our big fat cross (hope you don't mind, BRick; I redacted your email address):

me: !@#$#%$^%&* Pigs just 1 tile away.
BRick: you'd have had to give up one of the other foods, or having any first ring food to get it though
IMHO, not bad
me: Yeah, and there was almost no way to know it was there.
BRick: yup
me: Would have had to have moved the Scout in a very bizarre manner to discover it.
Oh well, that's what more cities are for!

I went for Worker first, though as Catwalk said there's no way to get the Expansive bonus for this build. I told him not to manually select a tech to research yet, as the game wouldn't prompt him (though we won't lose any beakers) and I wanted more time to discuss it. I'm not sure what the research times are yet, but as I see it we have we two main options: Mining - Bronze Working, or Animal Husbandry. What do you think?

(You know, looking at the map again, I realize 1NW onto that grassland forest hill would have been a better city, though we would have had to wait a turn. It gets both the fresh-water bonus and trade route connection for being on a river, as well as access to the sea [and a potential Great Lighthouse build site] and the hill defence bonus. This is what I get for being rushed [I didn't want to keep BRick too long] and not being able to consult with you guys in between moves. This site does have twice as many [six!] forests to chop, though. What do you think in retrospect?)

I think this looks like a very interesting map. Thanks, BRick!

[Catwalk]

That settling decision was painful, I kept having nasty suspicions that we'd get screwed no matter what. In this situation (assuming omniscience), I think it would have been best by far to settle NW of the corn. We'd get a whopping 4 food resources, giving us an excellent capital both long-term (high population) and short-term (lots of food tiles to share with expansions, excellent early growth rates, massive whipping potential). I do think 1S of current capital location would also have been better, but no way to know that. Shit happens.

I think we want AH first, else our worker won't have much to do after farming the wheat. I think we should do worker => quechua => something, growing to size 2 on the quechua. Can you guestimate when you'd finish Mining and Bronze Working? Divide BW cost by 1.2 and add 1 to your beakers to see how long it'll take. Possible worker micro:
1) Farm wheat => mine GH => chop forest => chop forest => pasture sheep
If you can get to BW fast enough for that first chop, it might be worthwhile. Alternative, with AH before Mining:
2) Farm wheat => pasture sheep => mine GH => chop forest => chop forest
You might not get Mining fast enough to mine the GH, and you definitely won't get BW fast enough to chop after that. So I might have talked myself into disagreeing with my first suggestion. Timing is key here, wasted worker turns are very expensive.

The GH forest isn't on a river, btw.

[TheHumanHydra]

Personally, I would like the hill next to the Sheep. Camped Grassland Riverside Hill Furs should be a 1/1/5 tile w/ Financial, which is equal to a non-Financial Civ's Riverside Silver, AKA a huge early game commerce boost. Plus, you could go Hunting -> AH and then Farm/Camp/Pasture all three of your resources, and AH should come in when the Worker finishes, give or take.

I considered that, but didn't want to lose a turn. We had a discussion about the value of the Furs tile; I was told it wasn't good, though my instinct was the opposite. I hope I haven't missed out on something really valuable!