Fin took a definite bump too; riversides are mostly mines, flats are cottages. Actually, that's a huge Fin boost, only two grassland riverside cottages.
Hunting is on the table still. I like Aztecs, but we shouldn't dismiss Mali, Ethiopia, Russia, Celts out of hand.
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1) India - Not that we at all want India's start techs, but NO ONE wants India's start techs. And since this start has such light tech requirements (1-non-AH-tech for all food, uncovered hills) India's penalty is more bearable. Probably go Hunting->Mining->BronzeWorking?
Not trying to push super hard for India, just the case for why it should in the mix. Certainly the loss of mining hurts India a ton even here, since the fast worker to chopping start is weakened by the slower Bronze Working.
2) Zulu - is awesome, and has hunting as a start tech as previously discussed. Don't at all need Ag, but shrug
3) HRE - Start techs work and has good-not-great UB.
Other note - Celts are super interesting. A ton of perhaps unappreciated buffs in RtR. 1) Synergy with Pro is now a ton better to have, 2) has a Sword UU, and swords are much better, 3) Dun was directly buffed, 4) Combo of #3 and #4 is sweet, if the hills are nicely placed Gallic Warriors act as cheaper horse archers, with +50% city attack, that receive defensive bonuses, and an extra +50% on hills to boot. We obviously don't want to fall into the trap of forcing a war just because we have them, but man they'd be deadly if said war happens.
Agree, agree, and agree, although to be completely honest all of three are discounted because I've tried them before. Pro/Egypt might be viable, but that's a long time for Bronze Working. Honestly, Pro in general is a bit discounted because of how long Pottery will take with most options.
I've fired up a basic simulation spreadsheet; is my nomenclature fairly clear?
Frankly, I'm not too wowed by this start for fast anything...the pigs-to-sheep or vice versa movement is just dang slow. Justinian looks attractive, kinda, as does Julius Caesar.
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Given the capital has 7 hills (minimum, haven't but anything more than cursory effort into fog gazing) this feels like a long term production city (HE likely?), not standard commerce capital, which I assume we'll palace-shift to elsewhere. I mean we COULD cottage all the grass hills, but I'm imagining how I'd react to this shot if all those hills were plains and grimacing.
Difficult movement is a point in the fast-workers favor, saves a turn moving back and forth right off the bat.
Do you think Imp is better than Exp? I generally think the baseline is Exp is better unless something particular about the civ or map is giving Imp a boost (though, if we're planning to spam a bunch of courthouse-UU still come pick time that is a perfect example of such a boost).
So Zulu, India, Julius Caesar gone of civs/leaders we'd mentioned. Aztecs and... every other civ you listed untouched. Are we still thinking Aztecs as the pick?
Of the non-aztec civs I think Celts are most interesting (see above), (which would then boost Pro/<something> as the leader despite probable late granaries). And while not interesting Russia is solid (great start techs, and in RtR the games a) make it to Cossacks and b) by he time you get to cavalry you want to be eating someone).
Ethiopia is great start techs but meh otherwise IMO, Mali slightly worse start techs but good-not-great UB/UU.
Going to do a few sims in a few hours, will let you know insight derived.
Do we have any interest in going religion first? Once the next 3 have picked I guess we should check who starts mysticism. (Thus far India and Inca, but if India is going to tech religion first their start is gonna be incredibly slow, and Inca has less incentive to tech religion cause Terrace)
Looks like the snake pick is proceeding apace, and as of yet no Aztecs fallen. If they do go, I'm pretty okay with Hunting/Mining, Celts, or Mali. Justinian is probably my favored leader for the Aztecs right now, followed by Julius Caesar honestly (edit: see wetbandit). Here's my thought on this start:
(January 5th, 2015, 14:27)SevenSpirits Wrote:
We've got two good food, followed by some lovely riverside bare grassland hills. Those hills we will want to be working pretty soon, with them plus the sheep pasture (heh) our early beaker tiles. I think Imp works out for the timing well for worker-worker-settler; we'll be building the second worker with food mostly, while the settler is built with the help of those mines. Neither early BW nor early Pottery are real musts here, so with the Mysticism start we actually can seriously consider early religion (early shrine in a Huge 12-player game is just massive). Imperialistic with this mine-topia capital is going to be very very nice, and we need to claim east fast (not ignoring west, either, because I'll bet you a lot there is someone right across the narrow sea).
Industrious for Stonehenge is not crazy, but I'd like to see a good plan for that start, particularly given Luddite is India we know already. Plus, heh, Krill is in this game. Much better to try Oracle unto Code of Laws.
I think I can agree, by the way, that this is an eventual not-capital (probably HE). That means we need to figure out where the actual capital is going to be fast, and have at least two cities working its riverside cottages by turn 50.
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(January 6th, 2015, 14:06)GermanJojo Wrote: Aztecs for me.
Dag. Nabbit.
Okay, only Grimace ahead of us. Still favor civ over leader, I think, but none of the options scream at me:
-Celts are similar techs...but that's more competition for religion. Plus, huge map so swords aren't amazing...
-Mali is a good tech set for the start, actually goes really well with Protective. If Pro/Org were a thing...
-Russia is meh without Phi. I could see Pericles or Peter of Russia, I guess...
-Egypt is odd, but works amazingly well with Saladin...
-Khmer is a repeat, but Exp Khmer is kind of a thrilling idea...
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(January 6th, 2015, 14:06)GermanJojo Wrote: Aztecs for me.
Dag. Nabbit.
Okay, only Grimace ahead of us. Still favor civ over leader, I think, but none of the options scream at me:
-Khmer is a repeat, but Exp Khmer is kind of a thrilling idea...
...Khmer was starting to look really good. Freaking. Crap.
BAH humbug. I'm not going to hold things up for long, but I'll wait another half an hour if you've got some insights you want to share. I've been less impressed with Imp than I'd like with my excel ruminations.
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