[Spoilers] Lazteuq and RefSteel's PB51 Adventure

[RefSteel]

Edited my previous post after further thought. As for the "binary research" (getting "gold saving" out of the way in advance) what that means here is: Since Pottery will probably come in on T41 regardless, if we're losing 2gt at 100% science (now that city 2 has been founded) we should reduce the science slider (for just t36!) until we're making +8 gold per turn. Then T37, we would increase the science slider to 100% and leave it there until Pottery hits. If we're losing 3gpt at max science though, we'll have to spend a turn at 0% science before going back to 100%.

[Lazteuq]

T36+37:

• Quesadilla is founded!
  
• I didn't see your worker #2 advice in time, so both of them worked on the road to Quesadilla. Worker1 just finished the road 1S of Quesadilla, while Worker2 is in Quesadilla on the way to corn. Current idea is to have worker1 finish the floodplains road(2turns left), while worker2 starts farming the wet corn next turn. Then worker1 can start roading toward city3 like you suggested. What do you think of the road route I drew? I wanted to connect the other city site in the process.
  
• Giraflorens must have built Stonehenge, because their score just jumped up by 22 points when stonehenge was built. I can confirm it by looking in the Top 5 Cities screen. 
  
• Giraflorens' scout has appeared again, similar location to before. Our scout is healing up from the earlier lion fight.
  
• A barbarian warrior is 5W1N of Enchilada. I'm not sure when barbs will start acting aggressive and going after cities.
  
• Enchilada has 24 production(mostly overflow) going into the settler this turn, and then it can work on a warrior as it grows.
  

Should the warrior in Quesadilla just sit there, or is it better to have him a couple tiles away fogbusting? That's what I normally do in singleplayer, but I don't know if it's a good idea here.

[RefSteel]

It's way too late at night here, so I'll just post some quick thoughts:

Quesadilla is founded!

Cool! Another delicious name!

I didn't see your worker #2 advice in time, so both of them worked on the road to Quesadilla. Worker1 just finished the road 1S of Quesadilla, while Worker2 is in Quesadilla on the way to corn.

That's another good opportunity for a Micro Tip then: Similar to roading, chops and tile improvements can be "part-built." So Worker2 could have just joined Worker1 in the forest, put one turn into a chop, and then made sure to CANCEL orders to get to the corn next turn!

Current idea is to have worker1 finish the floodplains road(2turns left), while worker2 starts farming the wet corn next turn. Then worker1 can start roading toward city3 like you suggested. What do you think of the road route I drew? I wanted to connect the other city site in the process.

If we had spare worker turns, all of this would be great! Finishing the FP road might indeed be worthwhile given where the Workers are now, but the road path you show there would take 13 worker turns to build! I would therefore suggest roading instead through the forest 1W of Enchilada (so we'd be able to chop it soon too) to the flat grassland 1W of that to the plains forest 1SW of that (similar reason) through the cow 1W of that - taking only 10 total Worker turns after the FP road is finished. Even so, the road won't be finished before the Settler arrives even if we do no chopping on the way....

A barbarian warrior is 5W1N of Enchilada. I'm not sure when barbs will start acting aggressive and going after cities.

I'll have to look it up again; it has to do with the number of cities in the world.

Should the warrior in Quesadilla just sit there, or is it better to have him a couple tiles away fogbusting? That's what I normally do in singleplayer, but I don't know if it's a good idea here.

I was actually thinking that Warrior could stand on the Incense so as to cover either city in an emergency while the Warrior being produced at Enchilada checks out and/or guards the area near city 3 from defensive terrain.

[RefSteel]

Thinking it over a little more: Given where our Workers are, and given the food situation, it might be better to let both of them work at Quesadilla for a little while after all. Suppose they both move to the corn and farm starting T38. (Separately - don't group Workers, because you lose Worker turns on odd-numbered improvements like farms!) The farm will finish T40, but the other is free to move 1SE to the coastal grassland and road. Then T41, the one from the corn waits for the road to finish, then moves through it back into the roaded forest and chops. The other Worker can farm the other Corn, while the chopping Worker heads back toward . Meanwhile, Quesadilla has started a Granary (with the Warrior on hold) on T41 (assuming we finish Pottery by then). The city grows to size 2 T42 and works farmed Corn + grass forest hill (1/2/0) and can 1-whip the Granary T44. This would delay the Worker support for our third city (and the road to get there) but allow granary whips from our +10f city ASAP. (A granary in the capital would help a lot too, and could use a chop of its own).

I'm not sure if these musings are useful, especially as it's quite late for me again - so I'll leave this here for now.

On barbs: I think they can attack a Worker or move onto a pillageable tile improvement (or attack a city founded right next to them) pretty much as soon as they appear as long as their target is right next to them. They won't enter culture without a target, but when the world city count crosses another threshold (I think it's 3 cities per player + 1 additional city belonging to someone) they can pick targets up to two tiles away (meaning they can attack cities without moving through pillageable tile improvements or roads or units or whatever other targets first). Hopefully that's fairly comprehensible and even accurate, but it is late here, so I'm not sure!

[Lazteuq]

T38: (mmmmm...planes).
Both workers are farming corn now.
I had been forgetting that deserts cost 3 turns to road when I drew that green line.
I like that worker plan, except I have one question: Wouldn't it be better to keep the western road always within forested tiles instead of going out on the grassland?
I think it is possible to get the warrior done in Enchilada on the same turn that we get Pottery by switching working the mine vs. floodplain.

Giraflorens' scout stayed still over the last turn, that makes me think it is standing watch over a city site. If so, that would put a city only 4E2S of Quesadilla. I moved the scout forward to investigate and saw some borders(not sure how those borders are visible?!)

This might mean Persian Immortals right on our borders pretty soon.
From the Victory Conditions screen, I see that "Girapolis" has 1 culture, meaning it was just founded last turn.
Also Giraflorens is still putting all of their espionage into us, probably means they haven't met anyone else.

[RefSteel]

I had been forgetting that deserts cost 3 turns to road when I drew that green line.
I like that worker plan, except I have one question: Wouldn't it be better to keep the western road always within forested tiles instead of going out on the grassland?

The green line is still good in spite of the desert cost - we'll definitely want all those tiles roaded eventually for a bunch of reasons; it's just that I don't think we can afford to worry about "eventually" since it feels to me like we're rather behind on more-immediate needs. Similarly, roading forests would be good, but those also cost 3 worker turns each - one to move onto the tile, and two to road it - while the flat grassland (and cow) could be roaded in 2 turns by a Worker close enough to move and road on the same turn.

I think it is possible to get the warrior done in Enchilada on the same turn that we get Pottery by switching working the mine vs. floodplain.

That should work, yes; good call! There's an alternate way to run the micro that delays the Warrior by two turns to speed up the Settler, but that also delays the Granary significantly.

Giraflorens' scout stayed still over the last turn, that makes me think it is standing watch over a city site. If so, that would put a city only 4E2S of Quesadilla.

I hope not; that would be a very aggressive plant and not a very well-placed one. The scout may just be fogbusting or playing look-out ... though it doesn't seem like a great spot for that either. I dunno.

I moved the scout forward to investigate and saw some borders(not sure how those borders are visible?!)

You can see borders (through tile bleed and the culture globe view in the shroud, or this way in the fog of war) on any tile adjacent to a tile you can see properly. Those two are revealed because our Scout can see the plains hill forest 2SE of its position (and it could see the northern one without that thanks to the grass hill forest 2S-1E of the Scout).

This might mean Persian Immortals right on our borders pretty soon.
From the Victory Conditions screen, I see that "Girapolis" has 1 culture, meaning it was just founded last turn.

Yup. And if I'm reading Civstats right, it's only his second city, making this a slow-expanding part of the world. I don't expect to see Immortals any time soon; he's going to be busy recovering from his even-slower-than-ours second city and all the hammers he sank into Stonehenge instead of Workers, Settlers, and defenders. (At least, that's my read from here, but I can't see what's really going on in the game....)

I'll note that my suggestion about keeping the Warrior on the incense was made under the assumption that we would road the floodplains tile to its SW (en route to Enchilada). At this point, I don't think we'll have spare worker turns to complete that road any time soon, so the best bet is probably to move that Warrior toward Enchilada and/or City 3.

And in case you're intereted in this sort of thing, here's a possible take on micromanaging the empire, assuming I understand what we have so far correctly. This also assumes we want to get granaries up ASAP:

T39: Quesadilla works a grass forest hill (1f/2h/0c) for just one turn. (This might appear to slow Pottery, but shouldn't actually do so since Enchilada will grow onto the river mine and Quesadilla will resume working the river corn next turn.)

T40: Enchilada is now size 3 and works all its improved tiles. Quesadilla resumes working the river corn. One Worker completes the farm; the other moves 1SE to the coastal flat grassland and roads.

T41: Pottery is complete; tech Writing. Warrior complete at Enchilada and remains in place for a while to quell upcoming "need protection" unhappiness; start a Granary there with the Settler still on hold, and switches to working Rice + Cow + flat grass forest (2f/1h/0c). Quesadilla starts a Granary with its Warrior on hold. The Worker on the corn WAITS for the other Worker to complete the road before using it to move SE-SW to the roaded forest, Chops, and then CANCELS orders!

T42: Enchilada switches to working Rice + Cow + Floodplain. Quesadilla is now size 2 and works improved Corn + grass forest hill (1f/2h/0c). The Worker on the roaded forest moves 2SW to the part-roaded Floodplain near Enchilada, resumes the Road, and then CANCELS orders. The Worker on the roaded flatland moves 1SW to the roaded forest and resumes the chop.

T43: Enchilada is now size 4 and resumes its Settler (with the Granary on hold) while working all three improved tiles plus a floodplain. (I believe it needs an MP Warrior for the next two turns.) The Worker on its floodplain moves W-SW to the grass forest next to the city. The other Worker completes a Chop.

T44: The Worker on the forest near Enchilada begins to Chop. The Worker near Quesadilla moves NE-SE to the lakeside corn and begins a Farm. Quesadilla itself WHIPS its granary for 1 pop (2 -> 1) and works the improved corn.

T45: Enchilada WHIPS its Settler for 2 pop (4 -> 2) and works Rice + Cow. Granary at Quesadilla complete with 2 overflow; Quesadilla resumes its Warrior, turns Avoid Growth ON, and makes sure it's still working the river corn. (Avoid Growth is used here to enable the Granary to store more food. It will fill its food box while putting 6f into the granary but won't go to size 2 yet, so next turn when we turn Avoid Growth off, we end up with a full granary, netting 5 extra food - 4 better than growing and working a floodplain.)

T46: Settler complete at Enchilada, which resumes its Granary. The Settler WAITS for the Worker on the adjoining forest to complete a chop. The Settler then moves W-SW through that now-chopped grassland to a grass forest hill en route to found city 3. (Or it could instead move W-NW or 2W, depending on the barb situation.) Warrior complete at Quesadilla, which begins another Warrior and turns Avoid Growth OFF! (This is very important because otherwise we waste lots of food instead of gaining it!)

T47: Assuming adequate fogbusting and defense by our Warrior(s) in the area, the Settler moves through the desert to the cow (or bare grass hill) near city 3's location. The Worker near Enchilada moves W-SW to the plains forest near city 3's cow. The road will have to be filled in by other Workers (coming soon!) since we're so short on Worker turns. Quesadilla is now size 2 and works river corn + floodplain.

T48: Settler moves to the site of city 3 and founds the city, which begins a Granary, working a flat grass forest (2f/1h/0c). The Worker nearby moves to the cow and begins a pasture (the "wasted" worker turn from moving close enough to do this (last turn) is worth less than the food and hammers we'd lose by delaying the cow pasture for a road in my opinion). Granary complete at Enchilada, which begins a Warrior. Quesadilla is now size 3, works corn + corn + floodplain. The Worker on its lakeside corn completes a farm.

And on from there, 2-pop whipping a pair of Workers from our first two cities as soon as feasible.

Now, there's a hitch with this plan: Even if everything goes right and we aren't disrupted by barbs, we won't be able to connect copper until T58! It is possible to speed this up at the cost of a bunch of food and hammers and tile improvements (changes to the above plan would begin at Enchilada on T40) but even so, it wouldn't speed things up by very many turns; it's just a long way for our workers to go, especially since we have so few of them. (That was the reason behind the plan I was suggesting too late a few turns ago, with Worker2 moving to road toward City 3 instead of helping out with City 2.)

This means if we want copper hooked up faster than that, we would have to use the desert hill copper after all, planting a very back-line city for the purpose. Even then, it would likely take until T55 unless we take extreme measures.

Some alternatives if we do want copper faster:

1) Fastest possible copper: T48, by planting on the desert hill copper. It would be an utterly terrible city, and we'd be making other sacrifices (delaying the capital's granary) but if T44 comes around and our Scout sees immortals mustering a few turns out, we could do this.

2) Fastest copper in a strong city: ~T56 either by "wasting" a bunch of worker turns on movement for the currently-planned city 3, or by planting ON the grass hill copper and teching Fishing -> Sailing after Pottery.

3) Trust Persia to have better things to do than immortal-rush us, build the city we wanted, and tech Archery in case of barbs: Copper hooked ~T58, Archery complete probably ~T52?

4) Rely on Warriors to defend against barbs and trust Persia and its slow start to not immortal-rush us early: T58

Dunno what's best here, but I thought I'd post this since I finally took some time to think it through.

[Lazteuq]

T39:
Giraflorens' scout moved somewhere we can't see. I was being a bit paranoid earlier, building Stonehenge is not exactly a threatening early game strategy. I moved the scout ahead to see Girapolis, and it is 1E of the fish, as expected. I'm pretty sure Giraflorens doesn't know where we are still.
I guess we should be more worried about the unknown unknown: whoever is south. I want to move the Woodsman scout southwest to see if we can make contact with the neighbor. The fact that we haven't seen the Southern Ones yet means they are probably more interested in their other neighbor than us (assuming everyone has 2 neighbors). So after thinking a little more, I'm optimistic about a peaceful early Classical era.

I am inclined to take the route of relying on warriors, because of how convenient this land is for fogbusting. I know it's risky, but I'm guessing we can get away with not researching archery. The coastal city with sailing route is really creative and I wouldn't have thought of it, but I still don't like the idea of spending those beakers on those techs so soon. Considering that we won't have many early coastal cities and Calendar is the distant future, I don't value sailing very highly. A few later cities will definitely want lighthouses, but not now.

I have no argument for that micro plan, and I'm learning a lot from it. I didn't know about the Avoid Growth option. Quesadilla is now working the grass forest hill.

[RefSteel]

So after thinking a little more, I'm optimistic about a peaceful early Classical era.

Sounds good; I certainly hope you're right!

Also, the options I listed above were very incomplete. If we feel we'll need copper sooner, there are a couple of breakpoints where we can change the plan: Two other alternate paths diverging T44, and then even as late as T48, we could change our mind, move to plant ON the grass copper (T50) and road to it at least by T55. (So no need for Sailing there.)

I think I agree about relying on our few warriors in spite of the risks: I feel like we're far enough behind that we need to roll the dice a little, even knowing that a bad "roll" could make things even (and indeed much) worse.

In any case, I'm glad some of the tips and tricks I've posted have been helpful! The avoid growth one with a new granary is very situational, and it's critically important to remember to turn avoid growth back off after the one turn when it's used, but it's definitely a good tool to have available!

One note with the microplan: I haven't actually simmed any of it out in a sandbox (and I'd need to see more details, like Quesadilla's city screen, to be sure that any sandbox I made would accurately reflects the game anyway) - these are all just mentalsims*, so if I'm off by a hammer or a breadslice or a worker turn that was used differently than I thought it was somewhere, the micro I posted might not actually work! Disruption by barbs or any accidentally-different move could likewise have large consequences for a plan that fits together as precisely as the one above - to say nothing of other players' actions, of course! I like building cute plans like that one, but adapting to changing situations is one of the most important strategic skills for (and, in my view, one of the most fun parts of) the game!

* - By "mentalsims" I just mean working out the micro in my head, tracking the food, size, hammers in various builds, and buildings of each city and the various worker actions. I really like little logistical puzzles like this, and am therefore prone to overplanning: I'll literally run "mentalsims" like these, or e.g. Master of Orion average combat probability simulations, as ways to clear the day's worries from my mind as I'm going to sleep at night - like a gamer's version of counting sheep. This isn't a tip obviously; it's just to warn you about what kind of weirdo you have for a dedicated lurker in this game!

[Lazteuq]

T42: The game is running again!

Refsteel, it is clear that we are very different kinds of civ players, but that is a good thing. I've always been lacking in terms of micro and I have underestimated the potential value of planning ahead.

Here are some city screens:

-Your microplan expected Enchilada would reach size4 next turn by working it's three improved tiles, but it actually needs 2 more food to do that, so I switched to a floodplain instead of the mine for this turn. Is this a mistake?



There are now 2 barb warriors lurking around: I'm considering finishing the warrior in Quesadilla to help deal with them.

The southeast warrior is only 2 tiles away from the cow, I want to mount an active defense against him. After taking this image, I moved the western warrior back toward Enchilada. I'm actually pretty worried about that barb, because our warrior near Quesadilla won't get there in time to help. I really want to avoid needing to switch Enchilada off the settler, but it might be necessary, depending on where the barbs move.

Also, should I put images in spoiler tags to make the thread more compact?

[RefSteel]

T42: The game is running again!

Great news!

Refsteel, it is clear that we are very different kinds of civ players, but that is a good thing. I've always been lacking in terms of micro and I have underestimated the potential value of planning ahead.

I'm inclined to agree that the difference in our play styles is a good thing. Overplanning the way I do becomes a weakness instead of a strength if I try to force changing circumstances to fit my existing plans instead of the other way around. (And sometimes building a too-cute plan can blow up in my face when something that relied on perfectly-lined-up timing becomes impossible for various reasons!) I'm impressed by the way you've reacted to surprises even just in this turn.

-Your microplan expected Enchilada would reach size4 next turn by working it's three improved tiles, but it actually needs 2 more food to do that, so I switched to a floodplain instead of the mine for this turn. Is this a mistake?

That's exactly correct! If we're able to (and want to) continue with that microplan, this was the right way to do it. (Looking back at the plan, it looks like that's actually what it called for on T42, in fact; I suspect the format I used made it easy to confuse a couple of different turns, so your noticing what was needed to grow rescued what would otherwise have been a failure of communication!) As you observed, we may have to adapt to barbarian actions though....

There are now 2 barb warriors lurking around: I'm considering finishing the warrior in Quesadilla to help deal with them.

Would it arrive in time to help? I suspect building a warrior at Enchilada would be more effective if one is needed ASAP.

The southeast warrior is only 2 tiles away from the cow, I want to mount an active defense against him. After taking this image, I moved the western warrior back toward Enchilada. I'm actually pretty worried about that barb, because our warrior near Quesadilla won't get there in time to help. I really want to avoid needing to switch Enchilada off the settler, but it might be necessary, depending on where the barbs move.

Good move; I agree with all of this. It's possible the southern barb will pursue our Scout, but I suspect it'll beeline our cows and try to pillage them (and then try to move to and pillage the mine if we let it) and since all we have to defend and counter-attack with are unpromoted warriors, we won't have good odds unless we can get it to attack us on rough terrain and/or across a river (best odds of course are in the city itself). That's a really bad place for the barb to show up given the way our units are positioned. It might be worth bringing the Scout back too, e.g. to the barb's current position if it approaches the cow (as ~sacrificial bait, though there'd be a chance of victory if our scout is near enough to full health) if we think buying two extra turns will make the difference - or if the barb repeatedly refuses to take the bait, the Scout could potentially help with the defense in other (or similar) ways....

Also, should I put images in spoiler tags to make the thread more compact?

Up to you (although if we have any global lurkers looking on, they can chime in on this one!) - I have no problem scrolling past images myself.