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Learning Capria FFH SG

kjn Wrote:Optics and Currency just researched. I think the next tech should be Honor, so we can get an Empyrean temple (and the priest slots) in Praha next.

Honor next sounds good. After that maybe we should look at something for stronger military? Stirrups, maybe, or Smelting to start moving towards iron weapons? Or we could pick up KotE and start working on a few adepts.

kjn Wrote:We have an assault group just outside Domir, but there is a workboat in the city which probably will link up the fish in two turns, so we might want to wait until that is connected.

I like this news. smile

kjn Wrote:Since Haphazard settled Brown 1E, it makes sense to push Red 1SW (onto Hart's lime dot). We lose a grassland and get more marsh in the BFC, but can work the banana.

Is this Red 1SE? I assume so, as 1SW would not be able to work the banana.

kjn Wrote:But how to dotmap Cyan and Green huh White is in the only sensible spot, I think, what with all the marshland. I think my Green and Cyan are the best spots, and the most defensible against sea assault, but for some reason I can't feel quite comfortable with it.

Cyan will be rather short on food, although some chain irrigation can take care of that with enough worker turns. I think your marked positions are good for these two cities.
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haphazard1 Wrote:Honor next sounds good. After that maybe we should look at something for stronger military? Stirrups, maybe, or Smelting to start moving towards iron weapons? Or we could pick up KotE and start working on a few adepts.

Stirrups give quite the bang for the bucks, and would probably be my main choice if we don't continue with economic techs. KotE is out there, and I'd like to get contact with the last civ to see if we can pick it up in trade - and remember that that civ has iron.

But the nice thing about our position is that Honor serves as an economy tech for us, and with an Empyrean temple in Praha we can run more priests there, turning Order into an economic tech too (as we get the shrine sooner). And we have managed to up our research rate to a reasonable level, even without using oodles of specialists.

Smelting and Iron Working is needed for Demagogs, so we need that when we feel ready for Fanaticism, but not before then, I think. Especially if we get forges via Guild of Hammers.

haphazard1 Wrote:Is this Red 1SE? I assume so, as 1SW would not be able to work the banana.

duh

haphazard1 Wrote:Cyan will be rather short on food, although some chain irrigation can take care of that with enough worker turns. I think your marked positions are good for these two cities.

The marsh 1E of Yggdrasil can be farmed (3 or 4F), and with the grass cow it gets +5F, which should be more than enough to get decent production out of those hills, and reasonably quick growth while working cottages.
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kjn Wrote:Stirrups give quite the bang for the bucks, and would probably be my main choice if we don't continue with economic techs. KotE is out there, and I'd like to get contact with the last civ to see if we can pick it up in trade - and remember that that civ has iron.

They have iron from the Mines, but presumably do not have the tech. I do not have any feel for how much they might ask in return for iron -- we do have a fair number of duplicate resources we could trade, as long as the AI does not put an insane valuation on the iron like Jonas did on his spare nature mana last time I checked.

kjn Wrote:The marsh 1E of Yggdrasil can be farmed (3 or 4F), and with the grass cow it gets +5F, which should be more than enough to get decent production out of those hills, and reasonably quick growth while working cottages.

I can be difficult to be sure looking only at a screenshot, but it looks like Cyan has quite a few hills. Four plus two more shared with Green, I think? Anyway, that will require quite a food surplus to work them all and still get some growth. So hopefully we can add another farm or two and get up to maybe +7 food or so.
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haphazard1 Wrote:They have iron from the Mines, but presumably do not have the tech. I do not have any feel for how much they might ask in return for iron -- we do have a fair number of duplicate resources we could trade, as long as the AI does not put an insane valuation on the iron like Jonas did on his spare nature mana last time I checked.

We'll just have to get there and see. Hopefully it's someone nice.

haphazard1 Wrote:I can be difficult to be sure looking only at a screenshot, but it looks like Cyan has quite a few hills. Four plus two more shared with Green, I think? Anyway, that will require quite a food surplus to work them all and still get some growth. So hopefully we can add another farm or two and get up to maybe +7 food or so.

Yes, I think we'll have to handle it a bit like Oxford. Grow on cottages for a while, switch to mines for production, then back to cottages. Not the most efficient way, and requires micro work, but it'll work.
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Capria still was a little bemused by her advisors. They had a distinct tendency to disagree with each other and quarreled a lot, a far cry from what could be expected of when Sabathiel led them. On the other hand, they had a clear chain of command, though who was in command switched with some regularity.

Now it was the man with the red pen again, and as he was wont to do, he started with a detailed review of the empire and its cities.

The emphasis for most cities was to expand upwards, and add as many citizens as possible.

Bologna was ordered to fire its merchant and hire two priests. The reason was given that a holy shrine could only be built by a Great Prophet, not a lowly Merchant. Otherwise, the city was told to work its poor neglected cottages to the south.

Paris was set to grow in size and work cottages. The library could wait until
the Great Lighthouse was finished in Salamanca.

Oxford had one citizen sent away from the silk plantation to a cottage.

Salamanca worked as hard as possible to finish the Great Lighthouse. There was still jokes in the empire about the monument in Bologna, and she wondered what the jokesters would think about this!

Coimbra fired its specialists, and was told to finish the market quickly.

Prague caused the advisor to utter strange words like conundrum. He said it was the empire's best chance of a Great Prophet, but the lack of food was quite bothersome. For now, two priests were recruited to work in the city during the Golden Age.

Krakow continued to work on a settler to found a new city to our southwest. A site rich in silk, milk, and more pliable draft animals had been located.

In Wien the advisor took great exception to the public bathhouse that was being built by the river. Why spend time lounging in a salacious environment when the city could benefit from increased trade and be more welcoming to fishermen. Capria had to approve of the fervor of the advisor, though she admitted that she would probably visit the bathhouse soon.

Heidelberg was found good, though the advisor mentioned that there would be a short period soon in which the workers outside wouldn't be able to keep pace with the growth of the city.

St Andrews also passed muster, and the advisor thought the city would be ready to start the conversion to our main military centre soon. However, it was thought the road between St Andrews and the rest of the empire should have been of higher priority, instead of silk and incense plantations. Diane, that was found outside the city, quickly received a military escort.

Tlatleleco hired a merchant instead of working a bare plains tile. Lois was also told to stop working on the lumbermill, and build a cottage instead. A single forest was apparently not enough to improve the health of the city.

In Santo Domingo Michael was told to quit working on a cottage, and instead go to the hill to mine it. New cities were to emphasise production, not commerce.

In Basel (that had previously been known as Brown) the advisor said that new cities should probably receive a market first, not an Elder Council. Terms like "marginal benefit", "bankbeaker" and "weighted average" were mentioned.

In international news, it was noted that the Clan of Embers now had the knowledge of Sailing, and this meant that the settling of our southwest would have to take place at a quicker pace. It was more important to deny that area to the Clan than it was to settle anywhere else.

Flauros was willing to give us the knowledge of Way of the Forests in exchange for Code of Laws, but we declined for now.

Last the advisor wondered if there was any possible use that the captured
scorpion outside Tlatleleco could be put to, or if it was just a drain on our resources.

The spider that is clandestinely exploring the land of the Clan of Embers found an exposed Adept, and after sending a Hawk to explore the area, it performed an exemplary ambus.

But perhaps not like this.

On the 220th cycle since the emergence from hell, the joyous but still stern words of Sabathiel was again heard over the Bannor empire, as Orders from Heaven was founded in Heidelberg. The Acolyte immediately travelled to Bologna to spread the faith.

Our axe outside Delouc has recovered from his illness, and the advisor mentions that the promotion known as March is very valuable in keeping our forces fit and hale.

Lois chops the plains forest outside Tlatleleco. Michael mines the hill outside Santo Domingo. George builds a mine outside St Andrews. Katherine builds a road on the ivory outside Basel. Fred goes to the jungled hill north of Basel, and Charles and Harry goes to the hill just east of the proposed White spot, which will be founded soon.

Coimbra has finished its market and starts a settler for another city to found. It works a plains cottage over a grass cottage while doing this.

With Order in, our sages asked for a new field that could draw their attention. They talked about the benefits of Currency, and how it would improve our trade, but it was noted that we had a distinct lack of trading partners. The Clan of Embers are our main rivals, and we should rather pacify them with sword and steel instead of silk or gold. Instead, the advisor said that the research of Optics would mean that we could gain contact with other survivors of the Age of Ice, that could be of a more pleasant disposition towards us. The Calabim were there, and while thoroughly unpleasant, they were at least civilised.

The Golden Age ended on the 221th cycle, and Optics could still be finished in a timely manner, to coincide with the construction of the Great Lighthouse, with only a marginal deficit for the empire's finances.

(-43@60%, with 277 saved gold)

Krakow finishes its settler, and starts to build a Market. Wien completes its harbor, markedly increasing the trade and the quality of fish in the city, and starts on a library. The plan is to make this city a centre not only for sages, but for accomplished merchants, bard, priests, and engineers.

The citizens of Oxford are quite transfixed by the lion that has been caged in the city, and the words of it spreads wide and far.

Our least experienced hunter in the west is sent towards Tlatleleco, so he can join the caravel under construction in Salamanca, and our spider has finally found its legs! It is markedly more mobile now.

In sad news, our Acolyte in Bologna was driven out of the city in much anger, probably caused by the many priests of Kilmorph that were present in the city. In hindsight the advisor admitted that the action of hiring the priests had been a mistake, and that it would have been better to simply work the mines.

In international news, it is found that the Clan can research Deception, and thus like us has the knowledge of Trade.

With the Golden Age ended, the Empire adopted the civics of Religion, Arete, and Agrarianism. The production benefit from Arete was good, and martial valor was not as important in Archers or Priests than it was for Horsemen or Axemen. In the end, food, production, and culture generation was deemed most important for now.

Bologna had its priests fired with extreme prejudice. The empire would have to put its faith in the citizens of Praha instead to provide it with a Great Prophet.

With a settler being built in Coimbra, the citizens are told to abandon the reagents, and instead work a mine. The reagents are instead assigned to citizens from Praha. The settler would be built faster, and Praha would enjoy a higher food surplus, at a slight loss of commerce in our empire.

One of our most experienced hunters makes an attempt to capture a Mammoth outside Tlatleleco, as the great woolly beasts are being called. However, he perishes in the attempt. The younger hunter nearby however manages to capture the beast, before he continues on towards Salamanca.

With the market finished in Heidelberg, and the failure of spreading the words of Junil in Bologna, Heidelberg sets out to complete a Temple of the Order as
quickly as possible, working mines and receiving woods from the forests. Once the Temple is built, the city will train several Acolytes.

St Andrews finishes its market, and starts an archery range. Isaac has finished a mine between Prague and Basel, and joins Katherine, but before the road had been truly finished.

The bear in Heidelberg is sent southwards.

The Great Lighthouse is built, and the knowledge of Optics arrive on the 223rd cycle. Salamanca starts to build a caravel, but switches the worked land with Paris too, so the library there can be finished quickly.

Uppsala (formerly known as Yellow) is founded, and starts to build a market. Tlatleleco has finished its Elder Council, and starts a Courthouse. The advisor
mentions that from now on, libraries will provide greater benefit in our cities, especially if they can work cottages or other commerce-rich tiles.

The newly captured Mammoth is sent north towards St Andrews, where the mighty beast should be a good candidate for training as a War Elephant. The main tech choices under consideration are Honor, Stirrups, and Currency. Since there is hope for for trade contacts soon, the decision falls on Currency.

Order spreads in Uppsala, but no volunteer Acolyte appears, and the Empyrean in Basel. Bologna trains our first Stonewarden, a welcome addition to our forces, and starts to construct a courthouse. A bear now dances in Uppsala, and the city immediately starts construction of a Temple of the Order, where it can direct the first missionary efforts to the south.

Our forces outside Delouc had prepared well, and managed to kill all the defenders of the barbarian city with no losses to themselves, crushing the city, driving its inhabitants before them, and hearing the lamentation of their women.

What is best in life?

Our Stonewarden is on the way to St Andrews, where the preparations for an assault of Domir is underway. He carries with him the Great Commander that had devised our new Military Strategy.

The Calabim again asks for the knowledge of Code of Laws, and a lizardman outside St Andrews is killed by an experienced axeman, assisted by a great commander.

Heidelberg finishes its temple, and starts training an Acolyte. Krakow starts a courthouse. Our fleet-footed scout in the south goes out in the southwest
peninsula, to clear it for our advancing forces, and finds a frostling by the mountain. He retreats and will try to lure the frostling into an ambush. Our exploring Spider manages to find the Pyre of the Seraphic, which we had rumours of long ago.

The preparation for an assault of Domir has been finished, and the majority of the forces in St Andrews leave.

The bookkeepers of the empire suddenly starts to give uncharacteristic shouts of joy. Apparently, the empire now can sustain half of its focus on new knowledge long-term. They are quickly silenced when the citizens of St Andrews are told to work a newly built mine instead of the incense.

+1 gpt@50% research with the incense; -3@50% afterwards

The sages of our empire now flock to Paris again, where a Library finally has been constructed. Scholarly rivalry between the cities of Bologna and Paris makes them both strive for new heights. A courthouse is started, and the city prepares itself for welcoming more citizens.

Bologna can thus focus on production and food, and starts the construction of an Aquae Sucellus, to further channel the Life mana in our empire, until Order is spread in the city. A little later, it is noted that a settler might have been of larger benefit. This also means that Salamanca can focus on production, and finish the caravel quickly.

Wien starts construction of a granary after the library. Santo Domingo starts a lighthouse, and Coimbra has finished a settler, and starts training our third
Stonewarden. It is thought that three of them will be sufficient for our military.

Finally, on the 229 cycle, we have knowledge of Currency. Amelanchier offers 340 gold for our knowledge of Way of the Earthmother, but I decline for now. Order also continues to spread, but sadly enough in the nearby Illian city of Sopor!
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Perhaps I need to add more images to my reports, but I'm bad at thinking of when images would be worthwhile, and simply forget to take the screenshots while playing.

Some notes about the current ways of handling the cities

Bologna is dumping hammers into Aquae Sucellus, in wait for receiving Order, so it can start on a Temple of the Order.

Paris is set for high growth-high commerce. Maybe even work the cotton in lieu of a 1F cottage until it reaches size 14 or 15.

Production in Salamanca is set to a privateer, to mess with Jonas, but the city is behind on infrastructure due to the rush to the GLH.

Oxford has a bard, so it and Oxford can gain control over the four tiles of culture from Evermore that lies furthest to the west. We should probably start to think about increased culture generation in Coimbra too, but since those tiles are in Evermore's BFC, I'm not sure how much good it would do. Other options are a worker or another temple (if we can get another religion into the city by then).

Wien has hired its first specialist and is building a granary. I think the next build should be a carnival for happiness, and to hire a bard. Then probably a temple (Order or Empyrean) before the National Epic.

GP generation

If we want to be assured of an early Great Prophet, then we need to be careful with specialists, especially in Bologna (which already generates non-trivial numbers of GPP). Perhaps go settler-temple-confessors in Bologna instead of dumping hammers into Aquae Sucellus first.

If we research Empyrean next, do so so it finishes in 3 turns, to coincide with the Stonewarden build. Then the city can build an Empyrean temple and hire two more priests, speeding things up markedly.

Switch to Order or Empyrean

We have a happiness surplus in our empire, but we will take a hit when we switch to another religion. Switch civics first (out of Arete) and then religion, I think. I think we should stay in Religion to keep the temple happiness during the transition, but switch other civics to what you think is best at the time.

Workers and settlers

The situation is decent in the west and north, but the south will need at least one more. Krakow is best placed to produce those, since its courthouse isn't urgent. Once Alred and James are finished outside Heidelburg they can road or chop the forests north of Bologna, and maybe road towards Sopor in preparation for an assault on the city. Lois should probably go north and help around St Andrews. Eric can be ferried south to help the southwestern settlements.

There is a settler and bear by Praha. Send them to a good spot!

Military

Try to get a few garrison units out of St Andrews soon, and then the city can continue with building unit enablers.

The force outside Dumir includes our two great commanders. They can actually help two units during a single turn each, by first attacking with one unit, de-attaching, and attaching to another unit that attacks. Though there is only two defenders, so it's not much help right now.

Then one of them should build a command post in St Andrews before it starts build some archers for real security. Then stable, training yard, maybe a siege workshop, and then it's time for the Heroic Epic.

You might want to delay attacking Dumir for a turn or two, so the work boat there can hook up the fish.

Wonders

With noone else having Currency or even Code of Laws, and with us having a Great Engineer, we have several choices for wonders. We can hold out for Guild of Hammers (that we can actually build without Smelting!), get the Tower of Eyes somewhere (St Andrews is probably the best spot, since that's our unit pump), or rush Guild of the Nine (Coimbra and Wien might be good close spots for that).

But don't put a GP-generating wonder in Bologna right now! Wait until Praha at least is ahead in GP points.
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haphazard1 Wrote:They have iron from the Mines, but presumably do not have the tech. I do not have any feel for how much they might ask in return for iron -- we do have a fair number of duplicate resources we could trade, as long as the AI does not put an insane valuation on the iron like Jonas did on his spare nature mana last time I checked.

I've seen some ridiculuous things like 3 mana resources or 1 rice....




in the same game, offered as little as twenty turns apart, by the same AI. It is really variable. But AIs don't value the strategic metals as much as in BtS as they don't unlock units, just strength boosts (which is arguably stronger). Mana nodes are a different matter. I think they are hard-coded in the game to be highly valuable to the AI, as a way to minimise abuse by the player who is a lot more savvy with mana (and the Towers) than the AI could be.

I'd prioritise Stirrups over smelting myself. They give you a decent assault force until well into the game. Their inherent withdraw weakens defenders enought that although you will lose forces you will get the job done easier and quicker (3 move) and get some uber promoted attack units fairly quickly.
Their lack of defence is a problem, but seeing as FfH AIs turtle more than BtS ones it isn't an insurmountable problem.

Will look at the save later. Last night I followed the Tao of Ger (Loughnane), which says: "Only what kill's you make's you stronger", and went training with the local GAA (pronounced Gaah) club for the first time in 13 years.
Travelling on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.
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Brian Shanahan Wrote:I'd prioritise Stirrups over smelting myself. They give you a decent assault force until well into the game. Their inherent withdraw weakens defenders enought that although you will lose forces you will get the job done easier and quicker (3 move) and get some uber promoted attack units fairly quickly.

Agreed. HAs are probably the among the best units in the game. Though we should probably slot in Honor before either. Empyrean temples are quite nice (+10% science), we could speed up the prophet generation in Praha, and we could get some more income by spreading the religion around, even if we don't adopt it other than for building a few Vicars.

Brian Shanahan Wrote:Their lack of defence is a problem, but seeing as FfH AIs turtle more than BtS ones it isn't an insurmountable problem.

Of you can use an active defense. When I played Into the Desert, I used handfuls of camel archers and horsemen to destroy incoming SoDs.
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kjn Wrote:Of you can use an active defense. When I played Into the Desert, I used handfuls of camel archers and horsemen to destroy incoming SoDs.

That works too, but if you're the one attacking the AI rarely comes out to meet you, whereas the base game the AIs always have at least one field stack lying around (Monty always has 8,423,805,468,676,057,635 at least all axes)
Travelling on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.
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1st Empy: We can three turn it if we turn up research to 60% losing 29 gpt (at 50% we're +8). I like that. That coincides with building the temple in Praha and going priest heavy. It also allows us to build acolytes or priests (forget their names) for spreading purposes. I prefer the priests.

2nd Isildur: I noticed him hanging out around Praha (probably checking out the local totty, not not casting a certain ring into the depths of Mt. Doom, no sir!). I also see we've the Tower of Eyes available. Want to rush it?
Pros: We're going to war at some stage, free dungeons will help that war
Cons: Opportunity cost, he could rush something else.

3rd: Heidelburg: I think the plan is keep pumping Acolytes to convert more cities, and if we switch Order priests, correct?

4th Settlers: I see the Praha settler. What do ye think is the best site? I'm liking Green, but think it may be too much of a reach at the moment. And do we want to hold back for a while with producing more.

5th Workers: Yeah Kraków looks good for workers.

6th War: We should look at what we want. Amelanchier looks like a good choice for quick opportunity. He's got the Tower of Complacency and OO holy city, unfortunately no Necronommicon. Interestingy Hyol with Archeron was his third city.

Finally Techs: Stirrups next I think, and after that we might consider Fanaticism (Donal, Paramanders, Crusaders), Religious Law (Chalid, Temple of Temporance) or the magic line (lots of fun). I'm liking RL at the moment, but have no huge preference.

Thoughts?
Travelling on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.
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