Intersite Game - Turn Discussion Thread

[kjn]

Ok, if we did the resource trades in a bundle then I guess it's best to keep it that way for now.

[zakalwe]

I like the idea of drafting Simple Life again. A happy cap of 7 should be plenty in the near term. Just whip the forge when it hits size 8.

[sooooo]

My comments after looking at the game:

I prefer forge first over barracks at Airstrip One. The forge has 78 hammers left compared to a 50 hammer barracks - not that much difference to wait for extra hapiness. If we have to work some plains mines like kjn suggested to delay growth then that's fine.

Lighthouse at Catherine looks good. After that, then a theatre for culture is OK for me. One other option for culture is a hindu monastery? Not sure, just throwing the option out there.

I still kinda like double-whipping a workboat out of starfall for our next city. It's one less catapult though.

Seven tribes looks a good whip-target for our next settler, which should probably claim some silver on an island.

At gourmet menu, if we're about to turn research on then there's no point in hurrying the market. Best to time that for completion (by tinkering with plains mine / coast) for when we want to go to 0% science again.

I'd like to see the workers at the Cutting Edge area finishing its 3 remaining mines. Should be a very good production city soon.

At tree huggers I think we want a happiness building after the missionary - I'd go for a market. The city has lots of nice improvements to grow into and will want to take over the cottages from Cutting Edge eventually. I also think we should be working the grass mine over the grass farm. It delays growth by 1 turn but will be worth it for the hammers.

Are we planning on whipping any knights for the war? We could get one out of ditchdigger.

Focal point is a candidate for double-drafting. We'd only lose out on a 2/1/0 tile and have pleny of happy cap here.

[Lewwyn]

Agree we should draft Simple life this turn and whip the forge when the city grows into unhappiness.

[SevenSpirits]

I don't think we should whip simple life (now).

Positives of whipping:
* We start whip timer now instead of later.
* We get 3 pop-to-hammer conversions for only 1 whip unhappy.

Negatives of whipping:
* We lose hammers by overflowing from a forge. (Overflow gets the forge's production bonus divided out of it, even though we didn't have that bonus while building the forge.) It's better to whip forges as close to exactly as possible.
* We are losing some really strong tiles by whipping.

It should be noted that there is no immediate benefit from having the forge. That city currently has several points of happy cap that it's not using, so the extra happiness is not worth much. (For the same reason, the positives I listed above are of dubious value.) The hammer bonus from the forge won't start kicking in until the next time we whip something after the forge.

Edit: I missed the page break and therefore didn't see that people were calling for a double-draft of simple life. That's reasonable. Another option we might consider is to 2-whip the forge as soon as that's possible, then whip a knight right after. I'm not sure how many hammers we are from that. Knights are really nice though.

[Sullla]

OK, most people wanted to draft Simple Life again. I went ahead and did so:



I understand the logic, I'm just hoping we don't run into happiness problems from the double draft penalty down the road. I guess we could always 2 pop whip a barracks later on if that happens. I also drafted French Riviera, which had not been drafted at all before this turn (first turn it was size 6).

Here's our military situation:



And I thought everyone would get a kick out of this Demos screen:



An even 500k of military power. Rival Best = 325k. With regards to other, smaller issues:

* I looked again at Adventure One, and yes, we can just barely get the capital's forge done in time to solve its happiness woes, if we use a war chariot for military police instead of a one-mover. I went ahead and shifted the new war chariot from Horse Feathers to make it work. Really cutting things close here; it's not about working mines to slow down growth, the city is already unhappy without military police units inside. We have just enough time to finish the forge before the war starts.

* Starfall is still following the build path that SevenSpirits outlined a few pages earlier in this thread. We also can't double whip a work boat there because, uh, work boats only cost 30 shields, making them a bit tough to 2 pop whip.

* I am absolutely considering razing the German city of Wien to avoid having the Buddhist AP religion in any of our cities. We're very far away from making that decision though.

* I believe that we've agreed on a lighthouse for now in Catherine, followed by a workboat for the southern to-be founded deer/crabs city. We should be able to 2 pop whip a theatre there at size 4, after working all of the coastal tiles. A monastery doesn't look to be particularly useful in a city like Catherine.

* The next settler for a city on the silver island is probably coming out of French Riviera, not Seven Tribes. As a low-infrastructure city that only has about 8 good tiles, French Rivera makes a great candidate for the next 3 pop settler whip.

* Gourmet Menu's market should be done about the time that we go back to 0% science. Also Seven nearly killed me the last time I worked the 0/4/0 plains hill over the 2/0/3 coastal lake there.

* Tree Huggers needs 19 food to grow - that's one turn of +7 food and two turns of +6 food. I'm running the +7 food turn right now, since we'll be able to swap onto mature cottages borrowed from Cutting Edge after it gets its forge whipped next turn. I expect to swap off the grassland farm next turn.

* We'll look at knight whips when we get Guilds, but I do expect that we'll pop out a couple from low-infrastructure cities with high happiness caps.

Thanks for all of your feedback, everyone.

[pindicator]

Negatives of whipping:
* We lose hammers by overflowing from a forge. (Overflow gets the forge's production bonus divided out of it, even though we didn't have that bonus while building the forge.) It's better to whip forges as close to exactly as possible.
* We are losing some really strong tiles by whipping.

To address the first negative, you're then going to apply the forge modifier back on those hammers the next turn, so it isn't that awful. At worst you'll lose a base hammer due to rounding. But I think that the second bullet point is strong enough not to whip here anyway.

[SevenSpirits]

To address the first negative, you're then going to apply the forge modifier back on those hammers the next turn, so it isn't that awful.

You say it's a wash, but the alternative is actually to get 25% bonus multiplier from the forge on those hammers! For example, say your city is making 1 hammer per turn, so ignore those hammers - they are going to be a wash. Take OR out of the picture for simplicity's sake too. You want to build a forge and a knight. Suppose you have 29h in the forge - you will whip 4 pop with max overflow. In this case you will get those 29 overflow hammers into the knight, which will now have ~60h left. You'll whip that afterwards and get 75 from 2 pop due to the forge, leaving a total of 15h extra to apply to the next build.

Now suppose you do this with 30h in the forge instead, and whip 3 pop for 0 overflow. Now you will 3-pop whip the knight from basically 0 hammers (so same amount of pop is whipped), getting 112h from the whip, and therefore overflowing 22h extra to apply to the next build.

The difference between these two scenarios is in the second case you got the forge multiplier on an extra 30h, because you avoided overflowing from the forge.

A forge basically says: all hammers after the next 120h will be multiplied by 1.25. But if you put too many hammers into the forge, then it instead says: all hammers after the next 120+x hammers will be multiplied by 1.25. It's desirable to keep x low. Sometimes, like in this case, there is a tradeoff in that you get to whip more pop for a single unhappiness point if you do it in the way that has more overflow.

[sooooo]

OK, the setup looks good to me. I'll reply to a few points for clarity:

* Starfall is still following the build path that SevenSpirits outlined a few pages earlier in this thread. We also can't double whip a work boat there because, uh, work boats only cost 30 shields, making them a bit tough to 2 pop whip.

I was meaning whip on the turn you select the WB. That get's 20 hammers instead of 30 (25 with forge), for 50 hammers and 20 overflow. But I forgot there was a carefully worked-out plan from sevenspirits here, best to carry on with that.

* The next settler for a city on the silver island is probably coming out of French Riviera, not Seven Tribes. As a low-infrastructure city that only has about 8 good tiles, French Rivera makes a great candidate for the next 3 pop settler whip.

Yes, this is a good call.

* Gourmet Menu's market should be done about the time that we go back to 0% science. Also Seven nearly killed me the last time I worked the 0/4/0 plains hill over the 2/0/3 coastal lake there.

I wouldn't take this as gospel all the time. There will be times when the mine is better. For example, happiness problems will make whipping less attractive. And for situations like now where a market is a 1-pop whip, that's not good for happiness and hence the mine becomes better.

[Ruff_Hi]

Logged into the game for the first time.

Spanish Mod Download: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6355677/WebMod1_0.rar

IP: 178.17.156.11
Civ Password: MenOfDenile

Civstats: http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2416
Spanish Mod Website: http://www.aptmod.com/portal.aspx

LP - can you edit your post and update the IP address - it is out of date.

Game Server: caledorn.no-ip.org (or 178.17.156.44) (Default port 2056)