[PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV

[Donovan Zoi]

Hey, guys.  Thanks for the discussion, and after some reflection I'm actually fine with everything said.  I think I've just been stubbornly dying on the hill of a misremembered example I've rarely implemented during the last 5 turns and then treating your guidance to this one particular build as a backlash against the entire project.  In actuality, you'll find my whip strategy has veered closer to 2-whipping 12/50 LBs (with Forge) or doing the same at 2/40 for consecutive Missionaries.

When I finish the mid-GA report, I'll be able to touch on each instance where a Barracks was involved.  I do know there was a case where I actually let hammers flow into a Barracks, and one where I found it dumb to 1-whip a city to Size 2 when I could get the Barracks outright the next turn.  So I'm hopefully not as bat guano as I've made myself out to be over the last few posts.

But I think Ref has mostly been able to articulate things in a manner that I have clearly not, because I know that I recently refused to start a Barracks that inherited a 126/50 rate of return.  So the 47/50 example I've been defending is clearly without merit and quite frankly may not have even happened!  I've been playing this game long enough to know the basic mechanics -- it's just not my first language.  Please accept my apologies, everyone. 

[T-hawk]

Yeah. For sure there are cases where you might want to whip at 47/50 - like timing regarding growth and working unimproved tiles, or if you want to whip 1 pop now instead of 2 later, or if whipping right then will complete the next item in one more turn (you can't wait that turn since that would be a dry whip penalty), or if you want to start the whip anger clock right then. You just don't gain anything from overflow mechanics doing that.

Civ 5 and (until recently I think) 6 do work the other way, where overflow is just at face value so overflow tricks are common and vital, so the next thing I was going to bring up was going to be possibly misremembering Civ 4 from that.

[Donovan Zoi]

End of an Era

Our Golden Age wil be over next turn, but I am finally taking the time to deliver on the screenshot.

One main point of unwelcome news is that I ran out the clock staying in OR civic and am planning on using anarchy to go into Theo in 5-6 turns.  The main objectives of this short extended window will be to complete remaining Libraries/Markets in our top cities and adding Walls/Castles.  I’ll also be whipping some XBows and LBs into builds while putting a shield or two into Mounted and Melee units to immediately whipped after we hit Theo.

Another reason to delay the switch is to try to remain under the radar for just a wee bit longer.  You see, SD and Gavagai have asked me to join them against Magic as of T160 and I don’t want to project this military advantage to anyone too quickly.

But with SD and Gav apparently friendly to us and Dreylin locked in til about T180, we have the means to push the domestic agenda just a bit farther.

And here’s the mega-city report I promised, capturing turns 1, 3, 5, 7 and 8 of the GA.  There will be more later, but in the meantime...Have fun! 



Mentar












I just let Mentar grow naturally whale picking up the needed commerce buildings.  I’m also initiating a Monastery experiment here to see how it boosts research. It will house all 4 religions within 2 turns


Willow












Spot the difference. 

I’m going to finally start growing this city once Mentar caps out.


Morrig












Getting the Library and Market with only 1 whip in the GA.


Reticuli












Built the Heroic Epic at turn 3 of the GA and then didn’t use it as the overflow into units was consistently over 150%.  I did use the GA hammers to build a Temple to produce either Great Engineer or Phophet in 9 turns.  Also, sent religion to Firma and getting a Stable for when we revolt into Theo.

Units will start flowing freely here once it grows to size 12 next turn.


Fierias












Two whips for this city and soon a third one for Market.  As you can see, we have enough happiness to absorb the hits.


Sssla












This was one of the cities where I whipped a Barracks, and rightfully at 36/50 to account for the proper overflow.  So I guess my main point of enlisting this method sparingly was to get twice the hammers into an eventual whip.  We will have optimized this city to be slider-ready here with a Market next turn.


Quayal












Two whips to bring on a Forge and Library.  Should have maybe put those hammers into a Lighthouse since Mentar won’t hulk out completely for awhile.


Whynil












After providing us with the means of our Golden Age, Whynil continued to help with regional concerns, with 3 missionaries and a Workboat for new city Tau Cygni.

[Donovan Zoi]

Maalor

We started to reclaim culture from Magic here, even before we completed a Theatre. I’m planning on enlisting some Artists after some growth, as Iran has claimed one of our Fort tiles and is now chopping it out.  Rude. 


Yarrow

More cultural pressure can be applied here in the home of lost fort tile.  I’ll be using the forge overflow for aTheatre.


Phyco

Boosted this city culturally and defensively; one of our first Longbows.  Will forgo the slider buildings to concentrate on military and growth.


Proxima

Potential powerhouse, and I’ve added 2 Mines here.  I’ll likely 1-whip the Library next turn.


Obaca

This city had to ignore its coastal tiles to help get a Library and will also endure a bit of punishment to get a Market.  Then I’m going to let it grow into its abundance of great tiles.


Firma

I missed a T147 screenshot for some reason.  But mostly military concerns, plus a Library.  It will get a growth boost soone when Reticuli lends its Sheep to join the two new farms here.


Herculis

Here’s an example of a city where I let the Barracks build out, and will be adding a Stable soon to go full on military.  I’m hoping to claim and chop the western grassland from Dreylin for a Farm, but will otherwise let Herculis grow for a bit.


Draconis

The Theatre helped us reclaim the gold we lost on this island!  I may give it a bit of room to run free, but it’s almost ready for the slider buildings.


Tau Cygni

Our newest city will get Fish and Wines within the next 3-5 turns.  The extra food will finally allow TC to grow into its own, with the immediate need being a Lighthouse.

[xist10]

1. Yes, you can change civics outside an GA, but do you really need the 2 XP ? Vassalage should be enough, or ? - I think this means 10 XP melee units with the Totem Pole ?

2. War against Magic again ?!

Cities:
Mentar: Why the workshops ?! Especially in a GA, you want to work the coast tiles !
Willow: I'm personally not really a fan of wealth builts, but I think I understate them. Grow to the 2 grasslands and work cottages ?
Morrig: I'm not sure if you want Libary and market here. You have 2 towns here ?
Sssla: You could argue to built a forge first ?
Quayal: LH for 2 food ? okay, 4 tiles.
Maalor: This is only coast, but still, good job with claiming the land.

Generally you have not that much cities where you have much commerce and as such, where I would build library/market/etc.

[thrawn]

The extra XP is definitely needed - it's only +1 for melee from the totem so with both civics they get to exactly 8xp. Mounted also need it for the 3rd promo.

But I wonder if the extra hammers from OR are worth the anarchy, and even if so much infrastructure is needed in the first place. An army and making gains is probably more important for winning the game. Although now that I look into it closer I don't like where the Magic dogpile will take the game, and you are probably better off convincing Dreylin to do a 2 vs 1 against Gav shortly after Gav attacks Magic.

[williams482]

I'm very skeptical that anything you could do in a couple extra turns of OR could possibly be worth an anarchy turn. That's a whole bunch of hammers lost, not to mention the food and commerce.

I do agree that Theo is extremely important here when we go into war mode. That third promotion on melee is a really big deal.

[Donovan Zoi]

Hey all, sorry for keeping you all at bay.  I've had a lot going on in RL while still putting a lot of time into the game.

I was expecting the concerns from not getting into Theo on time, and they are warranted.  I'm fairly certain the anarchy was at a cost, but it did allow us time to:

--spread our religion to our last two cities
--hasten a Wall/Castles parlay, if only slightly.
--get a few more Markets/Libraries in high-commerce locations.
--temper concerns about our military ambitions for a few turns
--and last but not least, complete this vanity project:




Unnecessary?  Perhaps, but it will allow me to test the Monastery science boost in our highest commerce city.  Having misplanned the end of the GA, I realized that 3 of the religions would not get spread if we went into Theo with the Missionaries still en route.

The good news is I did revolt into Theo this turn 157, as I value that extra promo like the rest of you.  I also offered a war dec v. Gav with Dreylin to begin on T165, so we'll see what happens there.  I've started to amass a small force to hit Magic from the south with Guerrilla 3 XBows (with Woods III Pikes next) to hopefully gain a surprisingly quick advance over the other interested parties in the Issus/New Tehran region.  And if things pan out as I'm expecting, we may not need much firepower to add 4 well-fueled cities to our empire.  I look forward to giving you an analysis later, but for now consider the Mrrrshans mobilized for war for the near future with domestic builds wedged in sparingly when appropriate.

I'll try to post my ideas later for you, and will give a full city report next turn when we're out of Anarchy.  Thanks for staying along, guys!

[Donovan Zoi]

Turn 159 City Report

I'll have more to post later, likely in response to where all of the troop builds are.  Let me know your thoughts....

Mentar




This city is a beauty and nearing its cap for now.  I’ve 1-whipped here for the first time in ages, in order to build a Settler for the nearby unsettled region.  It’s time.


Willow




OK, now spot the difference.  OK, it’s the Granary build, in anticipation of finally getting to use Mentar’s Fish soon.


Morrig




Our rendezvous point for a possible attack on Magic – 22 units so far. When Mentar caps out at 14-15, I’ll be able to lend a Fish here to allow it to thrive a bit unless I put Willow into overdrive.


Reticuli




We’ve had enough overflow here to push our 60h units into a x2 surplus.  And that’s with 2 pop devoted to specialists!  I suppose I could add more but really don’t want to get anything but an Engineer or a Prophet here.  We’ll find out in 6 turns and I’m thinking Parthenon if we get a GE.

Also building a 2nd Settler for a new city finally, which will absorb the overflow.  Chopping an out-of-town forest to hopefully complete the build in 1 turn and the maybe Walls/Castles before get too many hammers again.


Fierias




Putting this city on the fast path to grow into all of the unused commerce.


Sssla




Nice Walls/Castle parlay coming here soon.  Then hoping to grow back to Size 12.


Quayal




One of the few cities pumping out units right now, near SW Iran.  I’ll be starting the Walls cascade here next unless more units are needed.


Whynil




Recovering nicely!  I just gave the Corn back to Fierias for a bit.  Will be completing a whip parlay into a Castle soon, as these have proven very effective so far.

What’s with the Galley, you ask?  Well, we do get the 4xp on these now, but I started it with the hopes of making a troll run on Marathon – we can hit it in 2 turns by boating from Maalor!  I don’t have the supporting units to justify it yet, so putting it on hold.


Maalor




Coming into its own.  I’ll likely just 1-whip the Castle when I can to preserve pop.


Yarrow




Still one of the more confounding cities due to its lack of premium food.  My goal is to turn production on and off at a moment’s notice, which looks to be working well here on the Castle overflow build.


Phyco




Too remote to get much love from our Workers, that will be changing soon.  In the meantime I’m trying to reclaim a grass farm from SD using only the Theatre and I think we’ll have it back next turn.


Proxima




Stunting the city for a bit to 3 turn a Stable, but we’ll get some Sheep from Obaca to grow again soon.


Obaca




Putting this city on the fast path so it can lend away its food tile soon.  It’s got great production tiles ready to go when we do.


Firma




Just built a 9xp WE out of here to send up north.  Firma will end up giving its food back soon, so Reticuli can yield its other tile to a new city.  Worker plans here are to child a CS farm chain to get 2 more grassland at Reticuli and let it grow to a point where it can 1 turn Knights.


Herculis




Using Artists to get a 3rd culture ring here.  We are 44/55% on the forest grass and the mountain north of it, and will claim each of them soon.  I’m just letting it build the 100% buildings outright, and ten with a Stable this will be a pure military pump.


Draconis




Growing nicely with room to run.  I’ll be going against the norm and parlaying a Walls whip to complete a Library here.


Tau Cygni




Starting to rocket up after netting the Fish.  The partially built Lighthouse will get the hammers from a 30/50 Walls build soon.  I also just had workers arrive here to farm the river grass and Workshop the 2 NE grassland tiles in preparation for the Guilds boost.

[williams482]

Cities all look good to me.

How is the diplomatic situation coming along? How committed are we to a Magic war at this point, and what do we think is going to happen after if Magic does get dogpiled and overrun by a coalition?