[SPOILERS] Donovan Zoi and AdrienIer: Slümhund Millionaires!

[Donovan Zoi]

Yes, HAK got it about 6-8 turns ago. And Commodore could also be in the hunt at this point. Nationalism and Taj Mahal are on the way to our UB but I am not sure we have a shot at getting it. I stayed in Caste after our GA so our workshops will be at 4h once we have Guilds in 2 turns. And with that said, I was considering making the most of the civic by putting 2-3 cities on max GP duty to get our next GA and an Academy in SF. It would be nice to parlay that into another Taj-feuled GA but I think GP may be more important at this point.

In hindsight, I should have not split our stack against Krill and instead gone all in at Harrapan to grab the MoM, leaving adequate defenses at Oswego. We would have definitely taken the city and put Krill in a precarious position to either conquer it back or hold his north. We probably could have brokered peace too. Oh well.

[AdrienIer]

Hey ! I've been waiting all week to be around right after you played so I could take a look without interfering in turn splits and stuff and I finally managed to log in and take a look. So I see you split Elkad with Tasunke and made some skirmish with Retep, good job. Although the new naval operation I spotted is definitely the most interesting part

Are you heading for a religious victory ? I see you are researching music before nationalism so it can't be only for MT, I'm thinking it might be for the Sistine Chapel ? Of course the main problem is that you only have access to 3 religions currently, and while Hinduism and Buddhism are nearby Taoism might be unobtainable.

That leaves me with 2 questions : is using the espionage slider really worth it ? And do you fear Tasunke's knight stack ? It could flank you while your knights are away.

[Donovan Zoi]

Hey Adrien, welcome back! Sorry I have been so out of the loop. Let me catch you up real quick:

1. Tasunke and I have been fish buddies for the last 10 turns so there are no worries there. For now. However, he offered me Iron for Iron against Gavagai, which I accepted before realizing how many Knights he had near Koukane (yeah, I know it's spelled wrong .) So I needed to shore up a quick attack force to attack by water which would get there first. You have no idea how pissed I would be after staring at that defending Archer for centuries only to have the Zulu beat us to the easy conquest. Now we just have to see what Gav has against us, which is why I am spending the EP. Gavagai will be forced to decide whether to continue with Guilds (2 turns) or to get some privacy back, but I am still send lots of Pikes to the region anyway.

2. The skirmish against retep was kind of a joke as he had a decent stack of Knights in On My Own (city NW of Niagara Falls). So I did not even bother to attack Look Down as it would have left NF vulnerable. I ended up gifting On My Way and 170g back to him to end the war since that city would have been culturally worthless. I am so glad that our enemies have been so understanding while I send our units off a cliff! I haven't done a calculation yet, but I think only the NFL's 2008 Detroit Lions [0 wins, 16 losses] eclipse my futility on the battlefield.

3. I have no delusions of a Religious cultural victory, but I am now trying to gain back some land via culture. Tasunke's MoM has helped to steal our Bananas from Frontenac which is hampering growth. So I will either build Sistine or more culture there. I have 3 religions in Salmon Falls so I am building 3 Monasteries there for an extra 30% of research there. Even though they are short term, I may build only one in other high commerce cities, but perhaps not since I will need to focus on military again next turn.

There is much more detail I can add regarding the last 20 turns so I will try to fill you in on some of that later.

BTW, good luck in PB27! I think I am just as jealous about losing the FW as you are about my having the Zulu. I know I am gonna dispatch to work a hill and then have a total WTF moment. Gonna miss 'em, but can't wait to get started....

[AdrienIer]

I like the naval raiding party. What's the plan, take everyone to Kerkouane on the first turn or send half the knights on the island to take the warrior-defended city ? Also I don't know if it would be better for you to send the one movers to defend Kerkouane after it's conquered or to let them stay behind. If the former Tasunke could flank you really bad in St Foy (but with the fish trade it sounds like it's unlikely) but if they don't go forward Gavagai could counterattack.

Even though you have lost many stacks I think you're better on the offense than my football team, who scored only 29 goals in the French championship last season (worst in the league in that respect) and who, this year, has had literally zero situations (one 0-0 and one victory 1-0 on a ridiculous own goal). In any case the most important problem you've had, at least with the first attack on Elkad, is that when it comes to stacks size matters. Even now I couldn't find a real stack in Indian territory. The biggest one had like 8 units. Look at the situation between us and Gavagai : for dozens of turns he had his cities almost undefended on our side because he sent them all the other way. It could have worked and we sure wouldn't have attacked him. Maybe you could try something like that too. Maybe clear some of the northern units in former Dutch territory and put them in the south ? Tasunke won't attack the north if he knows you have units potentially threatening his southern possessions (much more valuable with all the wonders in them).

Are you sure you want to rule out cultural victory ? Because I don't really see how you could win in an other way. Even a 5% chance is better than 0 isn't it ? You have Buddhism in Gavagai land and Hinduism in Tasunke's border city, I think both are obtainable. You need to found Islam and somehow get Taoism from HAK and your chances are actually decent considering that Commodtay should have won this ages ago.

It's pretty funny that the two of us rolled the two civs we chose when we teamed up. I hope you'll get to have more fun than last time with the Zulus.

[Donovan Zoi]

I like the naval raiding party. What's the plan, take everyone to Kerkouane on the first turn or send half the knights on the island to take the warrior-defended city ? Also I don't know if it would be better for you to send the one movers to defend Kerkouane after it's conquered or to let them stay behind. If the former Tasunke could flank you really bad in St Foy (but with the fish trade it sounds like it's unlikely) but if they don't go forward Gavagai could counterattack.

My attacks have all failed because there has always been a hidden counterattack waiting, so I am going to check to see what the EP exposes next turn on the island. I am still planning to split the Galleys if all looks good. But yeah, I positioned the one-movers to defend Kerkouane next turn should I be able to take the city. I am going to take Tas at his word to honor our agreement.

Not sure if you noticed but I have a GG on one of the Galleys and made sure in WorldBuilder that he can grant promos onboard without the recipients losing a turn -- and it was a big Yes on both counts! So I will be able to upgrade 3 Knights to Amphibious and unfotunately have to give some XP to two of the Galleys as well. But there was no other way if I wanted to beat Tas to Kerkouane. This will also give us Level 4 units so we can finally start the Heroic Epic as well.

Even though you have lost many stacks I think you're better on the offense than my football team, who scored only 29 goals in the French championship last season (worst in the league in that respect) and who, this year, has had literally zero situations (one 0-0 and one victory 1-0 on a ridiculous own goal). In any case the most important problem you've had, at least with the first attack on Elkad, is that when it comes to stacks size matters. Even now I couldn't find a real stack in Indian territory. The biggest one had like 8 units. Look at the situation between us and Gavagai : for dozens of turns he had his cities almost undefended on our side because he sent them all the other way. It could have worked and we sure wouldn't have attacked him. Maybe you could try something like that too. Maybe clear some of the northern units in former Dutch territory and put them in the south ? Tasunke won't attack the north if he knows you have units potentially threatening his southern possessions (much more valuable with all the wonders in them).

As a native Chicagoan, I can fully appreciate rooting for teams that are extremely painful to watch. The reason I have had everything so scattered is because I wanted to defensivly cover as many fronts as possible. It was only recently that relative stability had returned to the former Dutch lands, with Tas making some smart moves to move Commodore back by taking/suing for 3 cities. It was a move I envied, as I had actually prepared for it by sending a lot of Pikes up there. But in the end I chose not to engage Commodore because I didn't want to lose the 250% in overseas/peace trade benefits.

Also, we have 8 turns of peace left with retep, and 8 turns on a Crab/Crab deal with Tas. We also have a Fish/Fish trade expires next turn so I will cancel and re-up that in a couple turns. It's kind of like having a rolling NAP.

NOTE: When I get some time, I'll be posting some of the other offers I have received, which include cities, gpt, and gold. I have the cities part figured out (to determine the victim of proposed alliance) and I think the gpt (number of turns in the treaty) but not sure where resources and actual gold come in when they are lumped in with everything else.

Are you sure you want to rule out cultural victory ? Because I don't really see how you could win in an other way. Even a 5% chance is better than 0 isn't it ? You have Buddhism in Gavagai land and Hinduism in Tasunke's border city, I think both are obtainable. You need to found Islam and somehow get Taoism from HAK and your chances are actually decent considering that Commodtay should have won this ages ago.

I guess I am just not seeing it now. We are far enough in the game where new buildings will never double in cultural output, so that sets us back a bit. But I have gone as far as to select the 3 cities I would bump up and those are:

Salmon Falls
Oswego
Frontenac

I still think we have a good shot at claiming land from Gavagai and retep and eventually Tasunke, so it will be hard to fit in those culture builds. And Commodore has shown vulnerability against Tas so I am not convinced that their (with dtay) victory is a foregone conclusion. But I still have several short term cultural goals, so once we get to work on them I can assess whether we have a shot at a full CV or not.

It's pretty funny that the two of us rolled the two civs we chose when we teamed up. I hope you'll get to have more fun than last time with the Zulus.

Yes, I know! I am going in with high hopes, but to me the retep factor has been replaced by the Krill factor. Still I have every confidence that I will actually get to play as the Zulu this time out...

[Donovan Zoi]

The Last 15 Turns, a Recap

Sadly, I have been terrible at reporting for the last few weeks. But I did end up taking a lot of screenshots. So let me catch us up here with the general recent history.


Dutch region c. 980 AD [T159]





Foreigh Affairs report - 1030 AD [Turn 163]






FWs work furiously on newly acquired Rotterdam while Indian Pikes taunt Commodtays two Knights in neighboring Cordon Sanitare.





The MiniSiege of Amsterdam - 1090 AD [Turn 169]

In this case we sent a stack of about 10 units toward Amsterdam with no real intention of taking the city. Tasunke had a stronger presence in the area but seemed to be content in leaving Amsterdam's culture to box out the Hague. So I just gave him a bit of incentive to complete the job so our FWs could have something to do. Time will tell if this was the right decision, as Tasunke has fledgling 5 cities planted in the region (he razed Amsterdam) but we will have Rotterdam and the Hague at Size 10+ quickly.





Standoff between Tas and Commodore - 1100 AD [Turn 170]

With Amsterdam gone things started to tense up across the river. I had already bugged out on this one.





Tas Victorious! - 1110 AD [Turn 171]

So here's the part that made me jealous. In one turn, Tas decimated Commodtay's Knight stack and sued for Third Lynx while building a 3 new cities within former Amsterdam's city limits. Lrn2pick yer battles, Donovan!




HAK's Wonder Grab

I remember in HAK's post-mortem in PB22 he had wanted advice on how to do better going forward, and someone stated (and I'm paraphrasing): Build fewer wonders. If you don't think you can afford to build a wonder, you probably shouldn't. Well, HAK must be feeling pretty confident now as he has run the table on the last few wonders with us getting Notre Dame mostly for the culture.




Here's why:

Yes, HAK has taken a commanding lead on the Powergraph, which makes sense seeing that he is currently at war with both Commodtay and Gavagai. But based on war weariness, it doesn't appear that much is currenly happening on the Commodtay front. We are still in a fairly solid 3rd place here.

Lastly for now, I will leave you with the current state of our continent, which also shows the buffer created between ourselves and Commodtay via Tasunke's new city plants.




To the north, you can get an idea of what we could have possibly picked up if I had been a bit less gunshy and shrewd about keeping our trade agreements. But it would have also give us another neighbor to concern ourselves with. Either way, Tasunke's play over the last 20 turns has definitely been impressive. Not sure what else I can say about it...










Oh yes. Of course. I hadn't noticed the mini-map. Thank you for your contribution.

[AdrienIer]

Great report ! About culture victory, I can try to take another look ingame this week to see how doable it is. Sistine and Eiffel tower will be necessary.

[Donovan Zoi]

Time to play catch up again...

Turn 174 - 1140 AD

The turn before hostilities with Gavagai began. The initial objective was to boat the cities of Kerkouane and Thaenae, and we had a nice window (8 turns) before we would have to concern ourselves with retep again. I really didn't have a problem showing my hand with our ships (also didn't really have a choice) since Gavagai was still in Caste System. In fact, the run up to this war was so casual that I finished up some domestic builds knowing we may need more military soon. I had 15-20 1-movers slowly making their way down from the former Dutch regions. After all, Gav was still tangling with HAK in the east so this had the makings of a veritable cakewalk. I sent the Iron/Iron deal to HAK to make it official and got ready to mow through the Carthaginian countryside.







Turn 175 - 1150 AD

For some reason, on this most crucial of turns, none of my screenshots were saved. I ultimately determined that I may have grazed the Fn (F'n?) key on my keyboard to disable the screenprint, or at least toggling it gave me the function back. Anyway, here's what went down:

1. The turn started with a resource deal (Incense for Sugar) from HAK. As a sign of goodwill, I went ahead and accepted only to realize that he would have given us 5 gpt for it. No response to my alliance offer however. To our southeast, Gavagai was defending McDonald's against HAK with 30-odd units. Putting two and two together, I began to consider the worst case scenario.

2. After upgrading 3 Knights to Level 4 with our GG (a naval ceremony nonetheless, so two of our Galleys received promos as well!), we successfully boated both Kerkouane and Thaenae. The former had been reinforced with a Longbow and a Crossbow to join the existing Archer there, while Thaenae still only had the Warrior present. We only lost one ]Amphib Knight Kerkouane, with another severely wounded. Thaenae was taken easily by a C2 Knight. Finally a net gain victory!

3. To our west, retep had already declared on Gavagai the turn before, putting his Aztecs in a position to take an undefended Sicca once he played. So Gavagai lost all of his island privileges putting up no resistance whatsoever. I was certain we would be able to beat retep to any mainland spoils as well.

4. I began the Heroic Epic in Sainte-Foy. It just seemed like the best placed to build both strategically and production-wise. I just had a few tiles to finish in The Hague and workers would be sent down to revert some Windwills back to Mines to optimize our upcoming wonder.

5. I reinforced Kerkouane as best I could and logged out. Upon checking CivStats later, I found that Gavagai had lost a city to HAK which could only mean one thing: my instincts were correct and HAK had made peace with Gavagai for another city. Awesome, so now those 30-odd units were freed up to give us trouble. Awesome indeed....

6. One thing I did have was an Iron/Iron deal with Tasunke, so I expected him to join the war soon at some point. He did appear to have several units milling about MoM's Fortress. I found it strange that he would agree to such a deal seeing that only Dunkin Donuts was a good fit for his empire while I would have the best shot at the rest. Or perhaps he was fine with us fighting side by side and seeing if there was a fair way to distribute the gains. I was hoping he would be intersted in the latter, because I was not going to be able to take on that stack on my own.

[Donovan Zoi]

Turn 176 - 1160 AD

I entered this turn with much less swagger that I had the last one, but at least I was able to take some good screenshots. So there's that. First on the agenda was to see how far those 30-odd units had come. Okay make that 40-odd, and they were all scheduled to beat us to Hadrumetum by the end of this turn.




The Imperialism of HAK

This had me cursing a blue streak at HAK for doing this. In fact, HAK had been playing quite the game of imperialism up to this point (there are far too many instances for me to call them happy accidents at my expense). Let's take a look at how HAK has passively undermined our interests this game:

1. Giving Iron to retep for only 6gpt in our run up to war with him. This allowed retep to field Knights when he would have otherwise been unable to do so.

2. Ivory (and another strategic resource IIRC) to Elkad during his final days.

3. 65 gpt to Tasunke, along with a host of resource trades. I beleive this was in exchange for a Zulu city, but it still came at a time when tensions were still simmering from our actions during the Krill day. <---not a typo

Now I haven't been totally innocent in our affairs either, refusing HAK's first alliance offer in favor of warring retep and then only offering it back when I was good and ready to do so. His Iron to retep was also likely another subtle nudge ("kill this, not that") which I missed. FWIW, I have already mentioned how this was a huge mistake on my part seeing that Gav's north was so ripe for annexing at the time I was approached. Add to that the powergraph below and you can certainly see why our ambassador was given a big "Up yours!" as his ass was booted out of the embassy.




Mildly demoralized, our troops on the island reduced themselves to petty looting of the neighboring towns while our ships toyed with the idea of advancing on Carthage completely empty to see if we could get Gav to pull some defenders away from Hadrumetum.




And here's a look at Gavagai on the FA screen. 3 wars and cold war with HAK. And Commodore's love comes with a pretty steep price.




Speaking of Commodore, he and dtay completed Liberalism this turn, predictably getting Steel in the process. We are also down Paper, Education and Chemistry while we try to complete Nationalism.




Tasunke Joins the Fight

To end the turn, Tasunke uses Knights to take the coastal city of Dunkin Donuts. However, his decision to wait until Gavagai played was something that surprised and agitated me. Not only did that further slice up the turn order, but it put both allies on either side of the clock against Gavagai. Being a no diplo game, this arrangement would lead to confusion and lost opportunity over the next couple turns. I would love to tell you all about it but I need to get some sleep.

Please stay tuned for more of Yesterday's News tomorrow!

[AdrienIer]

Nice report ! Do the WEs have odds against knights ? I don't remember their exact stats.