Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[scooter]

Draft to WPC:

Beta,

So we're a bit concerned about the state of things. The German team teched Feudalism, and we will both be facing double promo longbows if progress is not made quickly. We'll be taking a 3rd city this turn, and likely a 4th next turn, but things will bog down if they are able to whip out a bunch of longbows from their core cities. Right now you guys are headed up to that tundra city, but capturing that will not be very beneficial for you if it's choked with culture from their surrounding cities, and I don't know how you could capture those other cities if you're facing a bunch of whipped longbows.

We can capture the cities in our section, though it will be pretty bloody, but if you guys want to make any progress it's pretty important that their core cities start falling quickly. I'd really suggest you guys turn around and take a shot at Warendorf instead. Many of their units are going to turn around and fight us anyway since you can't hit the city for a few more turns, so things should be softened by the time you get there. The longer you wait, the more longbows will be present, and that will make it impossible for you guys to make any gains. The tundra city will still be there for the taking when the core cities fall.

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

Would like speedy input so we don't delay this too long.

[mostly_harmless]

Looks good!

[BRickAstley]

I like it too.

[kjn]

I think you can be somewhat more assertive about what they'll be facing from the Germans:

So we're a bit concerned about the state of things. The German team teched Feudalism, and we will both be facing double promo longbows if progress is not made quickly from next turn. We'll be taking a 3rd city this turn, and likely a 4th next turn, but things will bog down if they are able to as they whip out a bunch of longbows from their core cities. Right now you guys are headed up to that tundra city Wesselburen, but capturing that will not be very beneficial for you if it's choked with culture from their surrounding cities, and I don't know how you could capture those other cities if you're facing a bunch of whipped longbows.

We can and will capture the cities in our section, though it will be pretty bloody, but if you guys want to make any progress it's pretty important that we keep up the pressure on them and that their core cities start falling quickly. I'd really suggest you guys turn around and take a shot at Warendorf instead. Many of their units are going to turn around and fight us anyway since you can't hit the city for a few more turns, so things should be softened by the time you get there. The longer you wait, the more longbows will be present, and that will make it impossible for you guys to make any gains. The tundra city Wesselburen will still be there for the taking when the core cities fall.

But that's just minor stuff.

[Mardoc]

I wouldn't say 'impossible', just painful. I'd also add a listing of what forces we see, if you can - similar list to what they gave us last turn. Might be useful to start with that, so you can first mention the longbow, and then the implication of it

I like the general tone, though, and especially the part about taking only our half. I think it's good to start working on their expectations.

----

I have a longer term worry, which is that WPC might be unwilling to sign peace with Germany when we want to. I'm pretty sure we signed a no separate peace clause.

WPC will have an excuse why we did better that's not their fault (they had to face the main German stack - nevermind that we hoped to face and kill it). They'll also have a clear production advantage over the German remnant state, and catapults can beat anything if you're willing to accept the hammer ratio required.

I don't know that there's anything we can do about that, except to maintain a sitzkrieg with the Germans and hope that WPC wears them down eventually.

Edit: I definitely agree with our overall plan, though - take what we can quickly, before they get too many longbows, and then stop. Just trying to think how to manage the stop.

[TheHumanHydra]

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything wrong with sitzkrieg (I mean, you've got to defend your cities anyway) as long as you're not suffering extensive war-weariness. Will we be?

[scooter]

Thanks, sent with several of kjn's changes.

Beta,

So we're a bit concerned about the state of things. The German team teched Feudalism, and we will both be facing double promo longbows if progress is not made quickly. We'll be taking a 3rd city this turn, and likely a 4th next turn, but things will bog down as they whip out a bunch of longbows from their core cities. Right now you guys are headed up to Wesselburen, but capturing that will not be very beneficial for you if it's choked with culture from their surrounding cities, and I don't know how you could capture those other cities if you're facing a bunch of whipped longbows.

We can capture the cities in our section, though it will be pretty bloody, but if you guys want to make any progress it's pretty important that we both keep up the pressure on them and that their core cities start falling quickly. I'd really suggest you guys turn around and take a shot at Warendorf instead. Many of their units are going to turn around and fight us anyway since you can't hit the city for a few more turns, so things should be softened by the time you get there. The longer you wait, the more longbows will be present, and that will make it impossible for you guys to make any gains. The tundra cities will still be there for the taking when the core cities fall.

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

[antisocialmunky]

Nice, hopefully they don't do something unexpectedly stupid

[Twinkletoes89]

I have a possible idea I would like to float even though I doubt our hawks would even consider it.

We need to work with CFC. The contest is pretty much between us, them and CivFr. Whoever is left on the weak side of a 2:1 will fall and I think CFC may be our best bet. CFC can offer us greater security than CivFr likely can and it is easier to talk to them than it has ever been with the French.

The situation now is CivFr in yet another MoM golden age and although in a war, they have made tiny investment into it and likely gained as much as they have lost, if not more. We both have sacrificed part of our economies to war and need to catch up. But the land right now seems to lead us to war which will only put us further behind and give CivFr a greater advantage.

CFC are as self-interested as we are, and I am sure they know the above facts. Plus, the best time for our CFC showdown is when we are the last two major powers standing and they cannot get a dogpile and must go 1v1 on us. War after the German conquest would be perilous for both and likely prolonged and bloody.

I would have us give them a full proposal along the lines of what I will suggest below, and see if we can get some traction on a proper deal, rather than our mainly snarky tit-for-tat issues atm. I think that that is what they are wanting to see from us and may be enough to avoid a second war.

Here are some starting ideas/terms

1- We start completely afresh. As a show of commitment, we cancel they ivory deal and they do not pillage further for 5 turns while we negotiate.

2- We agree to a dye-for-gold trade

3- We speak plainly of the likely situation should we both war and let CivFr runaway. Play to their own self-interest that working together is the best way to counter them.

4- A joint commitment to diplomatically co-ordinate to isolate CivFr.

5- We ask them to name their geopolitical zone of interest which does not include our cities. We make a commitment not to infringe in any way, nor support any war opponents they face, including cutting off existing deals should they declare on them.

6- Potentially allow them to name one wonder for non-compete.

7- A considerably long NAP - perhaps linked to the end of CivFr but more likely turn limited

They need a deal weighted in their favour, and this is certainly that. But if you are expecting much less from CivFr I feel you may be deluded. I believe we can destroy CFC in the late game, 1v1. But if we can put off our next war by a significant amount of turns, then we will be much stronger for it, and CivFr potentially weaker. And that is what we potentially get from this deal, which is worth more than what we give away to CFC.

I expect you to disagree, but I feel the idea is worth proposing to you nonetheless

[scooter]

Twinkletoes - I think your general idea is totally worth considering. Also, I do firmly believe CFC would do it if they saw real benefit. However, if I was on team CFC and I read that post, I would respond something like "You are a bigger threat to win in our opinion than CivFr, and agreeing to that just ensures that your lead on us expands even greater than it already is."

This is the fundamental issue between us - they believe that the status quo means we will absorb land faster (we have more production capacity and more options to invade), and we will tech better (we have more land). Their only two invasion options is UCiv and CivFr, so right now that basically means just UCiv since CivFr could match them without much difficulty I imagine.

So I think in order for them to accept something like that, there would need to be some sort of boost involved that ensures they would be able to easily expand further militarily - probably via UCiv. And probably the only way that happens involves selling military units to them maybe. I dunno, I'd have to think about it. I'm not shooting your idea down at all, I'm just saying that's the one issue you'd need to resolve for them to consider it a workable idea. They're terrified that we'll get peace with them and then roll over all our weak neighbors to gain an insurmountable block of land, which is a valid fear. Overall, I think your thought process is good though - it's something that's worth discussing anyway. But I fully recognize I don't have the capacity for rage/revenge/offense that a few other people here seem to have.

(Yes I see our point 6 about a no-compete for a wonder, I'm just skeptical that they would view that to be enough. Though if we let them choose ANY wonder, that actually is a pretty big deal, and I'm not sure we want to do that)