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Gavagai · September 23rd, 2020, 05:25

"Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy" - for the love of God, please, remove hidden nationality from Privateer if you have not already. Or turnsplits will turn into a fucking mess.

Old Harry · September 23rd, 2020, 05:51

(September 23rd, 2020, 05:25)Gavagai Wrote: "Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy" - for the love of God, please, remove hidden nationality from Privateer if you have not already. Or turnsplits will turn into a fucking mess.

Seconded, but with less potty-mouth.

Charriu · September 23rd, 2020, 08:23

I would guess that the main purpose of hidden nationality on privateers is because of their unique ability to earn gold from blockading cities. This of course is something that the blockaded player wants to get rid of, but not necessarily wants to declare war on and destroy trade routes. Hidden nationality gets rid of this problem and allows the blockaded player to destroy the privateer.

Now the question is how we can I address the problem of turnsplits. Because I don't have experience with turnsplits and hidden nationality, could you illuminate the problem some more for me?

My first instinct is that this is a problem during actual turnsplits meaning wartimes. I have to look into the code, but maybe I can remove hidden nationality during war. Would that solve the problem?

Charriu · September 23rd, 2020, 09:18

This is only the changelog compared to version 1.5 RC1. All differences between versions are in yellow. If you prefer a clean changelog just look at the second post of this thread.

Changelog version 1.5 RC2

Tile Yields and Improvements

Lumbermills: Available at Metal Casting, +1 commerce with Machinery, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers
Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above

Game Mechanics

Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft.
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
War Weariness: War weariness declines faster after the war ended
Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
Global warming: Removed
Espionage: Active missions removed
Espionage: 'No espionage' option fixed, see bugfix section for more details

Techs

Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of 450
Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
Animal Husbandry: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace
Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement

Buildings

Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)
Colosseum: -25% war weariness

National Wonders

Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6

Wonders

Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder

Unit mechanics

Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
Coastal blockade: only blocks trade routes, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.
Free Wins against Barbs: All units that can act as MP get Free Wins against barbs as long as a settler is present in the same tile. Does still reduce your Free Wins towards Barbs

Land units

Scout: +100% vs Animals gained with Hunting, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout
Swordsman: +25% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8, does not apply to Khmer UUs, requires Ivory or Iron, does apply to Khmer UUs
Explorer: Gains Flanking
Airship: Cannot see submarines
ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250
Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval units

Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
Galleon: Requires Paper and Astronomy, Dutch UU still only requires Astronomy
Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy

Corporations

Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.25 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1 instead of 2, maintenance costs halfed
Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original

Civics

Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism
Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs

Traits

Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce, +100% production of bank
Expansive: +20% production of workers instead of 25% Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 50%, Remove production bonus for Colosseum
Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +100% production of Colosseum
Imperialistic: +100% production of Stable
Aggressive: -25% unit maintenance cost and +100% production of Jails,
Philosophical: +150% GPP instead of +100%
Protective: +75% domestic trade route yield

Civs

UBs no longer obsolete at any time. Affected civs are Celts, Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America, Spain
America UB: NEW Immigration Station - Harbor replacement, +3 Great People Points, +1 happy from Hit Musical, Singles and Movies
America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.
Arabia UU: Camel Archer starts with March
Byzantium UB: add +2 artist slots
Celts UB: +1 culture
China UU: max 75% collateral damage instead of max 60%
Germany UB: Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer
Germany UU: NEW Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch
Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals
Maya UU: Starts with Woodsman 1
Native America Tech: Hunting/Agriculture instead of Fishing/Agriculture
Native America UB: Available at Archery instead of Mysticism, additional +1 XP for gunpowder units, never obsoletes
Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory, only +1 free scientist
Spain UB: Never obsoletes, +2 XP for naval units
Zulu UU: Remove Mobility promotion

Leaders

Also included are three new leaders for the missing trait combos

LieuYe (ORG/PRO)
San Martin (CHM/CRE) and
Nebuchadrezzar (IND/PRO)

Events

New game options

BUG integration

Additional bug fixes

Added bugfixes from Unoffical Patch https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/u...19.324024/:

NobleHelium

Privateers being hidden nationality allows them to blockade, pillage, attack other ships and enter borders at will. Being able to attack and pillage are the most important parts of their functionality, more so than blockading (effective blockades are generally difficult to pull off unless there is some sort of water choke point on the map or you have a ton of ships). They can of course also be attacked at will. I don't know how to rectify this with simultaneous turns, and removing the hidden nationality while at war is irrelevant because the relevant situation is when players are not at war. Remember that turn splits are not just for when there is an official war state.

Charriu · September 23rd, 2020, 09:43

As you see I reverted some of the changes from RC1. Going back to RC1 I want to give a bit more reasoning for some of the changes and why I didn't wait for more data.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Lumbermills: Available at Machinery Metal Casting, +1 commerce with Machinery, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers

We already have some data for the lumbermill change from PB52 and PB53. The reason why I kept the change is the following:

It's only an experiment
If this change won't make people build more lumbermill then keeping it on Machinery won't do that either.

Especially because of the last point I see no reason to wait with this change as the data won't change in a meaningful way.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).

This was in CtH from the very beginning and I only took it from RtR. Main reason to remove it is to reduce the changelog of unnecessary changes.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Animal Husbandry: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace

I know some people said that they want to wait for more data. But I think I've already have enough information. I've already spoken about the 70 commerce bonus before and I still stand by that. There are more reasons to remove it. People have mentioned that it is still bad because it's not a worker tech. But what you forget is that I not only gave the commerce bonus to Mysticism but I also increased its cost, while I decreased the cost of one very essential worker tech: Agriculture. I think that the cost change is more important for overall balance and that cost change also got a lot of test runs in RtR versions and ToW versions. So yes Mysticism is not a worker tech, but with it, it is a lot easier to get all the necessary worker techs.

Lastly we also have to look at civs. Now I don't want to get into much detail with every civ, because some were already mentioned before:

Arabia: It still has similarly bad techs as Byzantium, but it has a good UB and their UU got better. The might be fine without an additional buff from Mysticism
Aztecs: With unnerfed slavery there is enough greatness in that civ.
Byzantium: Together with unnerfed Cataphract and the Mysticism change they are too strong.
Celts: They also got a buff on their UB, which was a really fun way to play in PB52.
HRE: Still has a great UB and their UU isn't total crap.
Inca: Special case that needs, special care elsewhere
India: Special case that needs, special care elsewhere
Korea: A buff to Mysticism wouldn't have hurt them
Maya: Their UU got a buff already, might not need another buff from Mysticism
Spain: I know I've forgot to remove the walls requirement as I had planned. Could still do it though. They are one of the civs that could have benefitted from a stronger Mysticism without making them too strong.

Don't forget that for all of these civs Mysticism is still a bit better then in BtS because of the increased cost of 60.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Scout: +0% +100% vs animals (+200% +100% vs Animals gained with Hunting) instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout

With 3 PBs and one 1 PBEM almost out of the early scouting phase, we might have enough data for this change. And to be honest this is one change, where data one help us. I previously had it with 1 move scouts and one extra movement from Hunting. I still think that this change was better, but it's not worth it if people hate it, because they the meta is now set in stone regarding early scouting. Same goes for the 0% vs animals which was a weaker version of the 1 movement change.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism

Same as lumbermills. If people don't use it on Monarchy, they also won't use it on Feudalism.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Expansive

Creative

Charismatic

I've reverted all of them to the 1.4 version and am ready to wait for more data as I do for FIN/PRO/ORG.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion, Cost 70 instead of 60

The Incans definitly need a buff compared to their 1.4 implementation. There they where way too weak and I don't need data for that, because I most likely won't get data, because nobody would use them.
India on the other hand is hogged by one player in most PBs, but others considered them, but were taken aback because of the cost. Without a worker bonus on traits it isn't necessary to increase their cost.

Charriu · September 23rd, 2020, 10:14

(September 23rd, 2020, 09:33)NobleHelium Wrote: Privateers being hidden nationality allows them to blockade, pillage, attack other ships and enter borders at will. Being able to attack and pillage are the most important parts of their functionality, more so than blockading (effective blockades are generally difficult to pull off unless there is some sort of water choke point on the map or you have a ton of ships). They can of course also be attacked at will. I don't know how to rectify this with simultaneous turns, and removing the hidden nationality while at war is irrelevant because the relevant situation is when players are not at war. Remember that turn splits are not just for when there is an official war state.

All good points and good reasons to remove hidden nationality. I've had a look at the code for plundering cities. The reason why privateers are the only unit that can plunder cities trade routes is because they can enter enemy territory and blockade. The code for plundering checks if you are at war with the plundered civ and if you are, no plundering occurs, which from a realistic point of view is rather bonkers. The reason why I moved privateers forward and made the changes to blockading is this plundering mechanic from privateers, which can earn you as much gold as the city would make from trade routes. By the time of gunpowder this is most likely around 6+ gold per turn. I see the following options:

I remove hidden nationality and with it the privateers plundering. Very sad because of this unique mechanic.
I remove hidden nationality and change the plundering code so that you can plunder during war times. This would allow all ships that can blockade to plunder.
I remove hidden nationality, but let privateers enter borders like caravels can. With this the privateer remains the only unit that can plunder, but the plundered player has no other way to defend himself other then war.
Same as 3# but I implement a new button "lift blockade". You would move a ship to the blockading ship and press the "lift blockade" button. This removes blockade for this turn. In addition to that I could also remove the privateer from your culture or back to a city of the privateer player. Problems are: Is it codable? Is it too micro-management intensive? How to prevent constant blockading-lifting-blockading across multiple turns.

Mjmd · September 23rd, 2020, 10:15

As the person hogging India.... let me just say they are really addicting and fun. How many turns do you have to save walking onto a forest or an unforested hill to save both the initial build turns and turns from missed growth? It can't be that many (5?). I will say in PB52 I definitely felt obliged to take Imperialistic to make up for it. I would say leave the cost at 70 and if no one picks them for another 2 pitbosses reduce it to 65. Now you can make the argument that other civs get units that over perform, but I would still say should at least be 65. Workers are the most important unit in the game, just like granary is the most important building.

pindicator · September 23rd, 2020, 10:15

(September 23rd, 2020, 09:43)Charriu Wrote:
(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism

Same as lumbermills. If people don't use it on Monarchy, they also won't use it on Feudalism.

One thing this does for Serfdom is bring it early enough that most people can use it for a first early Golden Age. No idea if that makes it a one-right-choice; I suspect not.

Charriu · September 23rd, 2020, 10:51

(September 23rd, 2020, 10:14)Charriu Wrote:
(September 23rd, 2020, 09:33)NobleHelium Wrote: Privateers being hidden nationality allows them to blockade, pillage, attack other ships and enter borders at will. Being able to attack and pillage are the most important parts of their functionality, more so than blockading (effective blockades are generally difficult to pull off unless there is some sort of water choke point on the map or you have a ton of ships). They can of course also be attacked at will. I don't know how to rectify this with simultaneous turns, and removing the hidden nationality while at war is irrelevant because the relevant situation is when players are not at war. Remember that turn splits are not just for when there is an official war state.

All good points and good reasons to remove hidden nationality. I've had a look at the code for plundering cities. The reason why privateers are the only unit that can plunder cities trade routes is because they can enter enemy territory and blockade. The code for plundering checks if you are at war with the plundered civ and if you are, no plundering occurs, which from a realistic point of view is rather bonkers. The reason why I moved privateers forward and made the changes to blockading is this plundering mechanic from privateers, which can earn you as much gold as the city would make from trade routes. By the time of gunpowder this is most likely around 6+ gold per turn. I see the following options:

I remove hidden nationality and with it the privateers plundering. Very sad because of this unique mechanic.

I remove hidden nationality and change the plundering code so that you can plunder during war times. This would allow all ships that can blockade to plunder.

I remove hidden nationality, but let privateers enter borders like caravels can. With this the privateer remains the only unit that can plunder, but the plundered player has no other way to defend himself other then war.

Same as 3# but I implement a new button "lift blockade". You would move a ship to the blockading ship and press the "lift blockade" button. This removes blockade for this turn. In addition to that I could also remove the privateer from your culture or back to a city of the privateer player. Problems are: Is it codable? Is it too micro-management intensive? How to prevent constant blockading-lifting-blockading across multiple turns.

Ok make this a 5. option. I could introduce a new flag that allows others to attack a unit outside of war, but that unit itself can't attack.

Thinking about it more and more I tend to remove hidden nationatlity like in 1# and try to solve the plunder problem later.

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