American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Why should Europe help us every time we do "x stupid thing". The US is the only nation in NATO to invoke article 5. I'm not saying they shouldn't pay more. If you look at the aid to Ukraine this is pretty evident. While we have been focusing on either giving old stuff or giving them money to spend back on our stuff, Europe has been giving them a lot of that as well, but also providing the bulk of their economic assistance (money to run gov ect). That money doesn't circle back to Europe like a lot of our defense money to them.

There is a huge difference between "they should do more" to "throw them under the bus". I think a lot of people just miss this for what I assume is almost purposeful propaganda reasons. Again, if we want to take "x action" on China is that action more effective if we just go solo 1v1 or more effective with a group?

Saying Europe is militarily weak isn't totally accurate either (its just the US and China are the 500 pound guerillas in the room), but yes they are more of an economic help. I'm fully for cutting our military bases in Europe. They won't be needed after this war. Russia might like to threaten NATO, but they are going to take a while to be a threat to anyone that isn't "country without defense guarantees".

[greenline]

Again, if we want to take "x action" on China is that action more effective if we just go solo 1v1 or more effective with a group?

Naval contributions from Europe would be almost equivalent to a rounding error.

[Charr Babies]

What is Russia giving us?

I don’t know, a peace of mind?

I mean there is a lot of rumor atm, but what can Russia give us that is more valuable than NATO alliance?

What is NATO for? It should have disbanded when the Soviet went poof. If peace with Russia - What good is NATO?

BOTH sides have to want peace. There were rumor's of a "as is" border peace talk plan for a year before the elections, but both sides aren't anywhere close on peace terms. IE Ukraine NEEDS good security guarantees. Russia for some odd reason doesn't want them to have those, making Ukraine even more think they need the guarantees.
There is a reason current peace talks don't include Ukraine. Those are terms UKRAINE needs, that Russia doesn't want them to have. US is offering terms Ukraine doesn't agree with.

More garbage again! What either side want is irrelevant. A peace talk is where you sort things out. I think you are confused again, confused “what they want” to “a peace talk” and even as little as an attempt of a peace talk. They don't call him bloody jo for no reason.

They might. And next time we ask them to help us with something they might say "no". Allies help each other, but we aren't going to be that soon. Should we be unilaterally setting peace terms? NO. Again, from a geopolitical stand point. Its stupid. We get nothing and piss off long standing allies. From a moral argument its also bad. The side involved in the war SHOULD BE part of the peace deal.

YADA YADA. Here you go off on a tangent again. You are letting your emotions get to you. My pointing out the facts and what is happening made no judgement whether it is good or not. You and I have very different morals. I gave up debating someone on morals who is pro war.

I mean China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet. When we asked Europe to limit high end micro chips and high end micro chip producing machines, did they say "no" or did they help us their allies? Europe is also part of the push to "friend shore" which is helping us and hurting China. Now its not ruinous, but its not nothing either. Russia its working so so, but its not like part a peace deal isn't to undo sanctions. Their economic minister is on record for saying they are hurting. Russia being a petro state vs China not being a petro state again is a very big difference as well.
Didn't the west in general try to be cooperative with Russia. I vaguely remember the Germans being real high on economic linkage being key to avoiding future wars....... Glad that worked. Also, your equation is even more off because we would also have to toss our Pacific allies to make China happy. So ya give up on the worlds most powerful defensive alliance ever for ???? I mean I realize Trump is doing part of it for free, but that doesn't make it smart. That doesn't make giving them everything they want is in our interests. 

All that you have said above - MORE GARBAGE. How is the alliance working out? We are kissing up to Russia. China is on the rise.

I don't know how anyone can use so many words to mean nothing

 

[Charr Babies]

There is a huge difference between "they should do more" to "throw them under the bus". I think a lot of people just miss this for what I assume is almost purposeful propaganda reasons. Again, if we want to take "x action" on China is that action more effective if we just go solo 1v1 or more effective with a group?

This is not just a Trump thing. Chinese have a nick name for US allies, condoms - Discard soon after we fuck with them.

Remind me again why we are going after China.  

[Mjmd]

@ Greenline I agree with Charr an actual military confrontation with China is unlikely. But if China were to take Taiwan an economic confrontation? Absolutely. And as some of the main markets for China are the US, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and the EU that gives a lot of power. Again, China isn't a petro state. They can't just easily find substitute markets for all the junk they make for us. If we can do without the junk is a different question. But the EU showing they were willing to endure pain against Russias aggression was a good sign / message.

@Charr - you have peace of mind that Russia thinks it can just take what it wants?

Is NATO good for whatever stupid thing we've done. Yes. I'm not saying we should have done them, but we thought we should at the time and NATO allies were there with us (or people wanting to be part of NATO). Its good for keeping autocrats from thinking they can take what they want. Its been good to keep major wars down. 

"heh my very good sources call him Bloody Jo therefore those same sources that are telling me he is responsible for a continued war are correct". Any corroborating evidence? Again, there are reasons Ukraine wants security guarantees. Why doesn't Russia want Ukraine to have them (as of yesterday this appears to still be the case)? Why would that make Ukraine want them more? Its pretty easy to see why Ukraine might not have thought peace deal was good to do without that. They only get one shot at this. Even if Russia never does invade again if they don't have security guarantees its going to hurt as companies won't want to invest there and their demographics problem will only get worse. But as Russia doesn't want them to have them, the threat of a re invasion is still probably the biggest reason. 

Are you arguing moral good or geopolitically good? Again, I think it fails on both merits pretty easily. I fully understand sometimes countries do things for geopolitical reasons that aren't moral, but here I don't see the geopolitical point either. Vague "trust us guys Putin nor any other autocrat will get ideas" peace of mind is surprisingly a tough argument to sell.

I mean I don't understand the kissing up to Russia atm either. That is kind of what the argument is about. If we want to do more on China, then maybe a strong alliance that owes us would be a good partner in that going forward? Its a really obvious idea, but for some reason people want to throw it under the bus for "reasons". Again, saying you want the alliance to do more isn't necessarily wrong. Being an ass to them to try to do it probably won't work in a way that helps us.

Edit: why go after China? Mainly to prevent them from taking everything they want. I don't have a problem with them past that. Although historically most nations try to bring down the "big dog". Although a group of nations hasn't been on that train for last 80 years. But we should ditch them and go back to most of human history that has worked well for the dominant country long term.

[Charr Babies]

@ Greenline I agree with Charr an actual military confrontation with China is unlikely. But if China were to take Taiwan an economic confrontation? Absolutely. And as some of the main markets for China are the US, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and the EU that gives a lot of power. Again, China isn't a petro state. They can't just easily find substitute markets for all the junk they make for us. If we can do without the junk is a different question. But the EU showing they were willing to endure pain against Russias aggression was a good sign / message.

@Charr - you have peace of mind that Russia thinks it can just take what it wants?

Is NATO good for whatever stupid thing we've done. Yes. I'm not saying we should have done them, but we thought we should at the time and NATO allies were there with us (or people wanting to be part of NATO). Its good for keeping autocrats from thinking they can take what they want. Its been good to keep major wars down. 

"heh my very good sources call him Bloody Jo therefore those same sources that are telling me he is responsible for a continued war are correct". Any corroborating evidence? Again, there are reasons Ukraine wants security guarantees. Why doesn't Russia want Ukraine to have them (as of yesterday this appears to still be the case)? Why would that make Ukraine want them more? Its pretty easy to see why Ukraine might not have thought peace deal was good to do without that. They only get one shot at this. Even if Russia never does invade again if they don't have security guarantees its going to hurt as companies won't want to invest there and their demographics problem will only get worse. But as Russia doesn't want them to have them, the threat of a re invasion is still probably the biggest reason. 

Are you arguing moral good or geopolitically good? Again, I think it fails on both merits pretty easily. I fully understand sometimes countries do things for geopolitical reasons that aren't moral, but here I don't see the geopolitical point either. Vague "trust us guys Putin nor any other autocrat will get ideas" peace of mind is surprisingly a tough argument to sell.

I mean I don't understand the kissing up to Russia atm either. That is kind of what the argument is about. If we want to do more on China, then maybe a strong alliance that owes us would be a good partner in that going forward? Its a really obvious idea, but for some reason people want to throw it under the bus for "reasons". Again, saying you want the alliance to do more isn't necessarily wrong. Being an ass to them to try to do it probably won't work in a way that helps us.

Edit: why go after China? Mainly to prevent them from taking everything they want. I don't have a problem with them past that. Although historically most nations try to bring down the "big dog". Although a group of nations hasn't been on that train for last 80 years. But we should ditch them and go back to most of human history that has worked well for the dominant country long term.

I don't know how people can use so many words to say nothing. Yet more garbage trying to change the narrative. I stated facts of what we did and what we are doing. You are trying to change the narrative as if I am taking sides. You might remember me, the guy who said we might be the EVIL EMPIRE. 

Save your fingers from all that typing.

why go after China? Mainly to prevent them from taking everything they want.

Oh? What is that everything China has taken and how?

[Mjmd]

Please do repeat the "facts". There weren't a lot there. You were mainly asking me questions / stating opinion. I answered them / refuted YOUR points. You may not like my answers or be able to logically refute them, but I am literally responding point for point. That isn't changing narrative.

"We may be the evil empire and discard our allies like condoms". But for some reason a lot of countries seemed to think we were still the better choice of allies despite all our faults (which I'm not saying we don't / didn't have). Or at least were. Something to think about.

Heh you are trying to distract by getting me onto what China has done / the clear provocations they make towards countries like the Philippines and Japan. You can't call me out on changing narrative then throw this one out there in the next breath.

[superdeath]

This war shows WHY NATO and security guarantees are needed. We are currently in the "long peace" the largest economies in the world haven't fought since WW2. Russia is showing that it doesnt care about what other countries want. We gain really nothing by becoming friends with Russia over EU/NATO countries. Its like saying goodbye to your childhood friend and becoming buds with the school bully.

Onto China. First off, taiwan is its own country at this point. If you dont believe that, then i guess north/south korea are one country, since iirc, both have cease-fires and one of them believes that the other is a part of them. The years and years of taking over countries and expanding is over. This is a peaceful time. All this bs going around is WHY the US has to be the world police and yes, before anyone says anything.. The USA has done bad too. Outside of our current president being flat-out retarded, we arent in the business of wanting MORE territory.

[Charr Babies]

Please do repeat the "facts". There weren't a lot there. You were mainly asking me questions / stating opinion. I answered them / refuted YOUR points. You may not like my answers or be able to logically refute them, but I am literally responding point for point. That isn't changing narrative.

Learn to use quotes just as I quote the things I am responding to. Click the quote icon, paste text

"We may be the evil empire and discard our allies like condoms". But for some reason a lot of countries seemed to think we were still the better choice of allies despite all our faults (which I'm not saying we don't / didn't have). Or at least were. Something to think about.

I see you are always proud to be a gang member. There are tons of reasons why people join gangs. I would bet not all gang members join "willingly" and not all gang members are proud as you are to be in a gang.

Heh you are trying to distract by getting me onto what China has done / the clear provocations they make towards countries like the Philippines and Japan. You can't call me out on changing narrative then throw this one out there in the next breath.

You are the one who bought up 

why go after China? Mainly to prevent them from taking everything they want.

Funny how you use Philippines when we have committed multiple war crimes against. Just a few example:
Killings of Civilians
Torture and Mistreatment
Destruction of Property
Summary Executions

And Japan, where we have nuked when it wasn't necessary for Japan's surrender. NUKED NOT ONCE BUT TWICE.

And you pat yourself on the shoulder for pretending to care about minor skirmishes in the South China Sea while we invade countries and overthrow governments on a regular basis.
 
Still
What is that everything China has taken and how?

[Mjmd]

Then it just becomes a huge quote chain that gets longer and longer and never ends. I trust your intelligence to note I respond point by point. If this isn't the case I can start; please let me know. 

I've never said "America good". I've never disagreed with you when you say "America bad". I am saying most of the countries that join us are democracies and can choose what they do. For all our faults they think we are the lesser of evils. That sounds like a good way for the planet to be and there is geopolitical strength there as well. We should strive to do better mind, but on the TOPIC of UKRAINE CHOOSING NATO membership, they obviously want this. So seems like they think we are better than Russia.

Ya we did those things to the Philippines and now they don't want China taking their stuff so they are allying with us. Relationships can change for the better. You want better relations with Russia and China despite all they've done (and come on stay on topic man, I know you want me to bring up genocide so you can deviate to it AGAIN like every other argument, but invasions and minority repressement at a min), but I don't see them being as happy with us being #1. But to try to get this back to the point about UKRAINE (you know where this started), geopolitically most people have US and China not together atm (reasons debatable, but the majority of international commentaries are pretty firm on this, not that it can't change, but lets deal with the current situation as acknowledged by most people). SO atm they are a major economic and military rival. Atm if you are Trump screaming "CHINA" all the time maybe an alliance would be helpful. Are US China relationships likely to get better if we give them everything they want? That is not historically the case, so that rules out that option. Therefore, having some kind of response if they try taking what they want seems wise (IE influence with NATO and EU) to help in whatever plan we choose. As for NATO and Ukraine (you know the topic), maybe you don't like what they are doing / how much they are doing. Maybe negotiate behind the scenes so they aren't forced to respond to all your crazy rhetoric. Having NATO but not US peacekeepers as border guards in Ukraine seems like a reasonable compromise, but maybe Europe and Ukraine would like a say before signing up to that?