Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I think the timing right now is particularly bad to reach out to CFC, given the presumed reason for the pause is so that they and CivFr can hash out a deal in diplomacy. It is obvious that CivFr don't want to deal with us, and the most logical reason for that is because they're entertaining an offer from CFC. For us to reach out to CFC now would, from CFC's point of view, reek of desperation IMO.

However, the other side of the coin is that if we do not communicate with CFC until they've concluded a deal with CivFr it won't matter because CFC will no longer be in a position to treat with us (bound by commitment with CivFr), and further, they'll no longer have incentive to do so, having just picked a side in the top 3 teams 2 vs. 1 dogpile of the endgame. We're in a predicament here either way.

[scooter]

So, I had a chat with Yossarian from CFC yesterday. Last night was crazy so I didn't get a chance to post it, but here it is. There is not much of significant substance - most of the second half of the chat is just chit-chat. Here's the log, I'll summarize the notable points at the bottom.

scooter
congrats to your team on getting the first complete kill
our world is a slightly smaller place now

YossarianLives
Thanks! In the car now, I'll let you know when I can chat

YossarianLives
Ok, I'm here if you want to talk
Sorry I hadn't gotten back to you earlier, I've been pretty busy, but I hope you noticed that we did stop pillaging

scooter
hey no problem. and yes, we did note and appreciate that
how's the CivFr war? I saw they razed one of your cities

YossarianLives
Thanks for your post in the tech thread also about the Spaniards attempted gift. We appreciate that. Very good sportsmanship on your part
We'll miss those guys, they were a lot of fun to play with

scooter
Yeah we talked about it and it didn't seem right. I'm glad to hear your team feels similarly

YossarianLives
CivFr war is fine, just trying to hammer out the land division of former Zulu territory

scooter
and agreed. they weren't a very strong team, but they made me laugh a lot.

YossarianLives
How is the German war going?

scooter
I don't think they were very organized - they asked me about tech trading a week or so ago hahah. They somehow forgot TT is off

YossarianLives
Who, the Spaniards? I don't think they took a really close look at the rules
They kept asking us to send them screenshots of the land between us when we first met

scooter
yeah makes sense. and it's going smoothly. their current turn player is a pretty competent defender, but they're obviously severely outmanned.
yeah the Spaniards. and that's funny, I don't doubt it.

YossarianLives
Yeah, they held their own against wpc pretty well earlier, but they're up against a whole different beast this time around
Poor Germans, can't catch a break!

scooter
Yeah I feel for them. Someone has to be the victim
how does land splitting with CivFr even work? They have a bit of a reputation for not being timely in their communication

YossarianLives
Lol, not easily. That reputation is well earned!
How about sharing German lands? Is wpc going to try to get any of the spoils?

scooter
well good luck with that, hah. Yeah they will, but as you can imagine their military techs are vastly outdated, so we'll see how much they can do.

YossarianLives
Yeah,I think we've pretty much figured it out now. Didn't go as smoothly as we wanted, but we think we found something fair for both sides
Hopefully the French agree lol

scooter
Haha, guess so. Does that mean our team's war will be the only one soon?? So sad
And how much land are they really going to get? You guys did do basically all the work there

YossarianLives
Lol, we really don't want war! I get that you think our requests for a NAP extension are too much, but you haven't come back to us with anything

scooter
Oh I was referring to our team's current war with Inca, not with your team
I think we both realize though that if we fight your team, CivFr wins

YossarianLives
Oh, got it
Well, hopefully wpc can join you to keep you company soon
Yeah, I think our the teams have really started to pull ahead of the pack.
But CivFr and us are finally starting to catch up to you a little bit
Those war preparations really have an impact on score

scooter
Yep, sure do.
by the way, this is why it's difficult to convince the team to NAP with you guys since you seem to insist on payment . You guys really aren't notably behind us at all
Taj + rolling over weakest team in the game will do that for you

YossarianLives
Sure, but you're about to roll over the next weakest team. And we've had to make some payments ourselves

scooter
you've had to make some payments?
and eh, we don't get to keep all the Incan land. in terms of city counts, you'll be awfully close to even with us

YossarianLives
To a team that's been ahead of us in score this whole time!
Well, in terms of land concessions, giving up Zulu territory that really should be ours

scooter
I was going to say you must mean CivFr, I certainly don't remember us getting any payments :D

YossarianLives
Lol, well, your marble (re)payment is coming
I just hope we don't meet the same fate as the last team that gifted you marble

scooter
well, both cases we traded for the marble, and in both cases we gave up more than we received in order to get it, so I wouldn't call them gifts hah. but fair enough

YossarianLives
I don't think the cost was too high. You've definitely benefited a lot from our long NAP

scooter
I think we've both benefitted a lot from it no doubt
CivFr would be the prohibitive favorite if we hadn't agreed on that deal

YossarianLives
Globe Theatre on the border may have been a more difficult build otherwise

scooter
they've got some extremely good players
haha, it was going to get built one way or another, and that was the best spot for a drafting camp

YossarianLives
True, the NAP and trades have been good for both of us
Yeah, they're a smart team, just need to work on their diplo a little bit

scooter
yeah, common issue for experienced MP teams like that. not accustomed to the diplo hassle

YossarianLives
Right, this definitely is not a ladder game
RB definitely seems to have the most experience with long PBs, even if you guys do hate half the settings we're playing with
I'm looking forward to reading Sullla's write-up of this game after its all over, to read about all our stoner moves, and the c&d work you guys must be doing. I hope he does one of those on his website.

scooter
yeah it's a diverse team. I hope he does a post-game writeup. I think your team has been very strong in the last 75-80 turns especially. really went all-in to get nationalism that quickly, then all-in on the Zulu war. Obviously both paid off

YossarianLives
Yeah, I agree that's where we stopped dinking around and got more serious about the game
So you don't think there are Amy other teams out there getting ready to join the fun and go to war?
It definitely helps to pick up interest amongst the teammates

scooter
I kinda doubt it, not a lot of serious building up happening

YossarianLives
Well you're probably keeping better track of that kind of thing than we are. We've had enough on our hands for awhile, as the saying goes

scooter
Heh, understood. Sorry for the delay in messages, partially occupied with work and all that. And I've got to run now

YossarianLives
Alright, sounds good. Talk to you later

Main notes

1) They appreciated our post on refusing gifts from someone who is about to die. Nice to know they view this as exploitative, even though CivFr apparently does not.
2) Sounds like CivFr demanded some of the Zulu land as reparations for the Merchant fiasco.
3) That said, sounds like CFC is going to pay them off, and they'll be at peace shortly. Not very surprising.
4) They view the NAP situation as the ball being in our court. I think they view things like us - a NAP would be nice, but it's not necessary right now for either of us.

[scooter]

Anyway, my read on the current situation is the Big Three (Us, CFC, CivFr) are about to settle into a mutual uneasy peace. Our teams aren't completely equal, but I sense we all understand that the two which fight each other probably lose.

I think the hesitance to sign NAPs right now from CFC's perspective is a hesitance to let us run wild over another neighbor unopposed. I suspect if we try to invade another neighbor after Inca, CFC will want to come to their defense. Signing a NAP removes that flexibility for them. To an extent that's true of us too, but slightly less so given that our position is still a little stronger than CFC's.

We could consider offering them a NAP that has the option for an "out" if the other side declares war. So if we declare war on Apolyton for example, CFC has the option to cancel it, or if CFC declares war on UCiv, we have the option to cancel it. I dunno, just tossing out ideas. I think that would be a nice way to give us a big time window of consolidating our position.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Since both our team and CFC's know we'd both like to keep expanding, could we pursue an agreement that leaves us both free to go eat someone else? I guess that would probably be too status quo and therefore not an improvement for CFC for them to tolerate it.

[darrelljs]

I hope as part of their peace deal with CivFr they don't lock up a long term NAP, because Geographically the only 2 vs. 1 among the three of us that makes sense is RB + CivFr vs. CFC. You make a good point in your third paragraph but that works both ways. If they ever do come to us asking for a NAP, we need to start warning their neighbors .

Darrell

[spacetyrantxenu]

If they ever do come to us asking for a NAP, we need to start warning their neighbors .

"Hey, that's our vassal, you can't treat them like that! Only we can treat them like that!"

[Zargon]

Wow, that was entirely more productive than I ever would have thought.

We can now more or less count on CFC not engaging in gold gifting shenanigans, and if they do, we have a great quote to hand back to them to guilt them into stopping. Awesome.

The uneasy peace that's looking likely between the top 3 here is entirely in our favor. If we were a clear runaway, CFC would be quick to jump into action against us, but as long as they believe that attacking us merely hands the game to CivFr, they won't do it. But I expect that we're further ahead than it appears on the surface, but that it won't become apparent until a few dozen turns down the road.

For a possible NAP, ok, they told us the ball is in our court, which translates to "make us an offer so we know how desperate you are". I think our invincible RB persona wouldn't give them that offer. The geography of the big 3 means that CFC is really screwed. If they coordinate an attack against us, CivFr wins. If they coordinate an attack against CivFr, RB wins. But RB and CivFr could coordinate an attack against CFC, with both coming out ahead. That means they desperately need a NAP with one of us or the other, though it's unclear if they've realized that yet, and we probably can't just tell them. It would be nice if we got the NAP instead of CivFr in that scenario, but they'll still be hesitant to attack us even if they get that NAP because they don't want to just hand it to CivFr.

If CivFr and CFC make peace, we might want to ask CivFr if they have a NAP with CFC and how long it runs for, offhandedly mentioning how we told them the same. That will be useful information for figuring out how much pressure CFC is under.

[kalin]

If CivFr and CFC make peace, we might want to ask CivFr if they have a NAP with CFC and how long it runs for, offhandedly mentioning how we told them the same. That will be useful information for figuring out how much pressure CFC is under.

That would be nice but... CivFr doesn't respond so we can ask all we want, they probably won't say anything.

Kalin

[Ceiliazul]

The geography of the big 3 means that CFC is really screwed. If they coordinate an attack against us, CivFr wins. If they coordinate an attack against CivFr, RB wins. But RB and CivFr could coordinate an attack against CFC, with both coming out ahead. That means they desperately need a NAP with one of us or the other, though it's unclear if they've realized that yet, and we probably can't just tell them.

I'd be shocked if CFC wasn't lamenting their meta position already. I agree we should mention this to the French, whether we expect an answer our not.

[scooter]

I don't think we should give them the NAP offer they want. I've talked myself into an alternative offer we could make to them - the one I already alluded to. Do NOT look at this as an official draft, but here's the basic outline of what I have in mind to say to them, generally in this order.

1) No, we are not willing to pay for a NAP. We are more than able to defend our borders if need be.

2) However, we understand CFC not wanting to tie their hands with a long NAP where they feel the benefit might be lopsided.

3) As a compromise, we'd like to offer a shorter term straight-up NAP (no payments) until T200. If one of us declares war on a neighbor during this window, the other side would have the option to end the NAP immediately. This would allow both sides to keep the other in check, maintaining flexibility.

4) This lets us both consolidate our gains. It's difficult to tell how well we are doing in relation to each other because neither of us have integrated lands. We may have more cities, but we also will have more tundra cities and more culturally squeezed cities, so in reality we are pretty even. At T200 we could then re-evaluate if the NAP has an imbalance, since at that time we'll have a better idea of where we both sit in relation to each other.

5) Having an agreement in place also lets us both keep an eye on CivFr. We don't want to lock ourselves into something, and then have to sit back and watch as CivFr rolls over somebody. They are a real threat to win, and if we aren't careful, we could get into a feud that only benefits CivFr.

I don't know if they'll go for it, but I think it's attractive to us, and I think it's attractive enough to them that they'll take it seriously. The question is if we want to maintain being non-committal, or if we want to throw something like this their way and see how they react. Please only discuss with a cool head.