Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[scooter]

Also, regardless of whether we "side" with CFC or CivFr, repeatedly reinforcing that CivFr is a legitimate threat to both of us is a positive thing. The worst thing for both us and CFC would be for us to focus on each other so much that CivFr slips by and wins this thing, and I'd like to keep mentioning that to CFC. Besides, I think it helps our bargaining position.

[spacetyrantxenu]

See the violence inherent in the system? I'm being oppressed!

[kalin]

I like the draft scooter. I was thinking that we could even attack someone if we can, as CFC would assume we won't and will not be ready to attack us even if they cancel the NAP. Even maintain a knight force in case they only cancel the NAP to raze their border city. That's a bit unrealistic I know, but just putting it out there.

Kalin

[Zargon]

I'm not terribly against offering something like that, but if we do, I really really really think we should wait a few turns before doing so.

It's one thing to say we don't really care about their NAP. But actions speak louder than words. If we wait a few turns to get back to them (at least a week, preferably 2, and I even think that 3 wouldn't be out of line if the turns remain at this pace, since their average turnaround time seems to be a week and a half), it underscores the fact that securing their NAP is something we're only mildly interested in. Making the intern wait 5 hours for a 3 minute meeting with the manager is a time-honored way of showing how much we care.

If you get poked in the meantime about it, that'll be a huge positive sign, and indicating that it's up for discussion but there's more important things to take care of at the moment would send the right message.

[scooter]

It's one thing to say we don't really care about their NAP. But actions speak louder than words. If we wait a few turns to get back to them (at least a week, preferably 2, and I even think that 3 wouldn't be out of line if the turns remain at this pace, since their average turnaround time seems to be a week and a half), it underscores the fact that securing their NAP is something we're only mildly interested in. Making the intern wait 5 hours for a 3 minute meeting with the manager is a time-honored way of showing how much we care.

If you get poked in the meantime about it, that'll be a huge positive sign, and indicating that it's up for discussion but there's more important things to take care of at the moment would send the right message.

We first discussed this NAP well over a week ago, probably close to two weeks. They've been more or less waiting for us to make an offer ever since, and we've chosen not to. So we've basically already done what you're suggesting.

[scooter]

Oh, and to be clear, I agree this isn't really urgent, and there are upsides to waiting longer to even mention it. Deadline is still 20T away, which is forever. Just be aware there ARE risks to waiting - that CFC will use the interim to mend things a great deal with CivFr and/or rally support against us. Generally when I've played diplo games, I've been thrilled when the top dog is doing the "projecting his power" BS because it gave me a window to turn people against him. I don't want us being a victim of that here. Being proactive is not weakness, it's just being smart.

[Zargon]

Ok, fair enough. We first discussed it a while ago, but it was obvious then that under the climate at the time, it wasn't happening. Now the winds have changed as they're bordering a fairly hostile CivFr, and I just don't want to be perceived as jumping at it as soon as the door opens a crack. If we sent a message today, for instance, it would be perceived as in response to the chat today, not to the chat 5 turns ago.

You're more experienced than I at this sort of thing, though, so that's something to consider. It doesn't seem to me that we lose anything by waiting, because it seems like CFC has been trying to turn people against us for at least a month already, and they'll continue to do so NAP or no NAP just like we're playing up the CivFr threat to them. Getting a NAP extension quickly won't let us run any farmer's gambits or change our tech path to be more economy-focused, at least until printing press is done. I suppose it might inform us whether we need to take our gains from the Germans and get out or push for the elimination, but even that decision seems at least 3 turns off.

Then again, it could be that I'm being shortsighted here. I'd be shocked if they took an even NAP, but merely handing them back the ball has merits, too.

[waterbat]

I really like your last 4 point email on FCFC, Scooter.

In the least, it further probes the willingness they have for working with us. It may also reveal how far along in the dogpile plans they have gotten.


I'm also in favor of eating WPC before someone else does. Knights vs. Dog soldiers??

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Sweet. Though be warned, YossarionLives of all of CFC is probably going to be the nicest face to us, considering he's been lurking us and knows our mindset and decision-making.

I don't want to attack WPC because doing so we inherit all of WPC's borders and hence their neighbours. And UniversCiv might be reluctant to attack WPC when they have the backing of a big neighbour.

Finally, I'm really surprised about just how the hell CivFR managed to expand past Apolyton's border city, that finger of CivFR territory looks like a giant flashing "eat me" sign and security risk to Apolyton. Maybe we try to get a partition of Apolyton land with CivFR once their NAP run out? That's more likely than #3 and #1 ganging up on #2.

[antisocialmunky]

I would say just let the poly nap lapse and invade them if civfr starts taking cities to keep the balance of power. I'm sure poly would love that logic for why they are fighting a 2 front war.