The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Mardoc]

Want Baron soonish, but also want Baron with free promo and extra 3 Priest GPP in PacMan

I'm not convinced. Baron, used properly, should be fighting nonstop, with only 99% odds battles. He'll stack up the XP very fast that way!

Getting the WW snowball rolling earlier will be golden, though.

Still - it's probably not worth the argument until we have the situation next turn.

[Darkmantle]

This is one lurker is definitely looking forward to some fireworks :D

I've been using the Baron in a recent game and I just love when the AI leaves a whole bunch of unguarded workers around to make it laughably easy to upgrade the ravenous werewolves.

[Thoth]

I'm not convinced. Baron, used properly, should be fighting nonstop, with only 99% odds battles. He'll stack up the XP very fast that way!

Getting the WW snowball rolling earlier will be golden, though.

Still - it's probably not worth the argument until we have the situation next turn.

Ay, we want the Baron fighting as much as possible. But an extra (free) promo helps him win those battles. Plus we get +3 (base) Great Priest points per turn. And we get an extra promo on all future units. The Shrine is a bloody nice NW.


But we do need to be alive for any of that to matter.

This is one lurker is definitely looking forward to some fireworks :D

I've been using the Baron in a recent game and I just love when the AI leaves a whole bunch of unguarded workers around to make it laughably easy to upgrade the ravenous werewolves.

Thanks mate, hopefully we'll be alive for some turns to come in order to keep you amused.


(I'm looking forward to reading the Lurker thread at the end of this game....and giving the finger to them Lurkers who were counting us out when we got rushed. :hat: )

[Mardoc]

I suppose it's appropriate for the Sidar to be halfway between dead and alive for an extended period of time . But this is getting annoying!

Was thinking more on the Baron - I think ASAP we want him to be DrillIV/Blitz/MobI. Other promos would be nice, but those are the ones that will multiply werewolves the fastest.

Want Baron soonish, but also want Baron with free promo and extra 3 Priest GPP in PacMan (Altar vic is still looking like our "best" hope for a win)

Suppose we get those priest GPP, and run 6 priests, with National Epic. A total of 42 Priest GPP/turn. Our next GP is due at 476 GPP, of which we have less than 10 (all GCommander). To get 6! prophets, we're talking more than 60 turns!

No, I think Altar's probably too little too late, at this point. Our best hope of victory is still Conquest. Sure, it may not seem like we'll be able to take over the world as we huddle behind our walls, in fear of Hippus - but it's still more likely than Altar.

That said - the Shrine will certainly help with conquest! I foresee Pacman being the source of most of our mainline armies, between its hammer potential and the Heroic Epic, so it's the perfect place for Shrine. Meanwhile, smaller cities will be called on for garritroopers and Wanables.

And...I'm back to assuming here . Gonna sign off for the night. Hopefully Serdoa plays the turn first thing in the morning and we know how we stand, then.

[Mardoc]

Now that I think about it - this means there's probably only three possibilities for what we see on T136. In order of my best guess of likelihood:

1. Our stack is gravely injured, and missing a member or two. Serdoa's stack is halved or worse, lots of wounded horses everywhere
   
2. Nothing. Just a tech thread post from Serdoa. Depending on how lucky he was and how much he likes our wanes, it might include a concession to Bob.
   
3. Standoff. This is a good situation, gives us time to tech some more, start killing horses and the Thane, debate between building the Baron, Ghosts, and Rangers.
   

Looks like we got number 3, with a vengeance!

The event log says 'Tasunke' declared war - but fought no battles! Also, we received this message (also sent to Bob)

[COLOR="Lime"]State of the game: I can't fight Mardoc, partly because he played well, partly because Sidar are just plain ridiculous in those settings. Not meant to take anything away from you Mardoc, but thats also why I attacked you first, it is plain stupid that you with one size 10 city are easily teching up to Beastmasters + have the money to upgrade troops left and right + the production to get some more troops done. I am not sure if that change from EitB would be too strong in a normal game though. But if ever again a game like this is played, don't ban Kurios, ban Sidar.

Anyhow, Mardoc obviously also played well. So the question is were to go from here? I am obviously out of the game by now as I will never be able to upgrade all my troops and if I delete enough that I can actually tech I will be run over by Beastmasters, Iron Champions and all the other fine stuff you two have I assume you have already discussed how you want to finish this game when I am gone? If so, I am thinking about taking a leave similar to Selrahc by letting the ever swarming barbs have Selrahcs cities. Let me know what you feel - I don't want to upset anyone by taking a quick exit, but I don't feel too interested in sitting around and waiting for you to attack either - especially as you both only have those really, really slow troops. Compared to my horses I feel you field zombies or some such :P

Kind regards,
Serdoa [/COLOR]

So, yeah. There's that. Whether or not the odds were on our side - we broke Serdoa's morale, and therefore have the initiative and ought to win the war.

Um. I certainly don't want to force Serdoa to stick around, the main question is what type of retirement package would be most fair? Preferably something that forces Bob to have to fight some of Serdoa's troops too - or Serdoa to disband. Oh, I don't know what makes sense. Our previous retirements have been with civs that couldn't much influence the game even if they wanted to, but Serdoa here could play kingmaker if he chose to continue. Heck, he could probably play kingmaker just by declaring on Bob before he retires. I think he's giving up too early - but he gave up too early against Bob, too.
[SIZE="4"]
Thoth, any thoughts? Also, lurkers, any creative ideas on how Serdoa can retire gracefully and let Bob and I duke it out from here?[/SIZE]

Also, Serdoa, for reference: I think you underestimate the value of numbers. My question of whether I was dead or not was meant seriously, because I'm pretty sure, backed up with Sareln's combat calculator, that you had a decent chance at killing me outright last turn. That chance will decrease, now, of course, as we start killing horses.

Finally, a dilemma. Bob asked for our world map. Do we give it to him, now that we don't 'need' his help? I mean, I did specifically say 'yes, if you have your units in our city on T136, ready to defend', which he obviously didn't, but I don't know what Bob's thinking is here. I don't really want to fight him this instant.

[Mardoc]

Well, I played the turn, killed two horses with Ghosts, returned the ghosts to Pacman. Serdoa seems to have deleted some horses, or at least moved them away from us. Not sure what's going on there, but he ended my turn with only 42 horses in sight. I think survival is now assured. Next goal, prosperity.

One Ghost had a flawless victory, so next turn will be cloaking and heading south again. The other took damage, so will heal first.

We 1-turned a Ghost, it seems we need to whittle Serdoa down before we can really press onward, and ghosts are the way to do that. Soon we'll probably build the Baron, to go train on the barbs to our north.

Also sent a message to Bob and Serdoa proposing Bob declare on Hippus, then Serdoa retire. And one to Bob saying I'm delaying the map trade until we figure out what's next.

Anyway, everything's up in the air until we figure out how to retire Serdoa gracefully. Figures this would be the weekend scheduled to spend time with my wife's family, away from the internet

[Tasunke]

What would the realms beyond community think about Serdoa gifting cities and then retiring?

Or should he just retire?

Is deleting units before retiring 'bad form' or 'graceful'. ??

[Thoth]

What would the realms beyond community think about Serdoa gifting cities and then retiring?

Gifting cities is a no-no IMO.

Or should he just retire?

Is deleting units before retiring 'bad form' or 'graceful'. ??

If Serdoa wants to check out of the game (by whatever means) that's ok. But deleting units/gifting cities....nah. Just give the civ over to an AI and let the chips fall where they may.

If he deletes all his units in Asteroids then he gives us the city for free (which isn't fair to Bob).

We definitely want Asteroids back, but getting it for free would feel a bit cheap.

An unearned victory isn't much of a victory at all. We've earned our survival in this game (so far). If we can pull off an underdog victory, then I'll be pleased as punch. But I don't want a cheese victory. Better an honourable defeat against the odds than a crappy win via cheese city gifting.

[Tasunke]

Glad to know where the cards lie.

In that case, I'd say he should just plain retire ... no deletes, or city gifts, or troop movements, or attacks ... just retire at the start of his next turn to allow the AI to play it.

[Thoth]

another save is in....

Quick look: Serdoa decided to sacrifice 3 Horsemen in order to pillage us...they need to get dead.

We're suffering from "we will not fight our brothers in faith" unhappy....time to get the Bear to dance.

There are two red-lined HM in Asteroids for us to kill next turn (Remember to Hide our Ghosts SVP)

and Bob DOWed Serdoa.