[PB25-SPOILERS] The Lunacy of the Reign of HAK Continues

[HitAnyKey]

Anyone know how to calculate when you are able to 1-pop whip something (such as a Library)?
So I have currently 45/90 hammers and food store of 14/30 (pop 5). If I get 12 more hammers and 4 food this turn, will I be able to 1-pop whip next turn? Right now I it needs 2 pop to whip it.
Or do I need to get 9 hammers & 6 food? Or do I need to get 6 hammers & 8 food?
Those are my current options.
Basically, which one will allow me to 1-pop whip it next turn? Hopefully someone is able to see this right now, since I kind of need the answer within the next hour or less.

[Thoth]

Assuming you have no production modifiers, then you'd need to have 60/90 hammers invested for a 1 pop whip.

The amount of food in the box is irrelevant to how many hammers you get from a whip.

[HitAnyKey]

Thanks Thoth. The answer came too late for me to change which tiles the city was working, but looks like it also wouldn't have mattered at all since there was no way I could have gotten the production to reach 60/90. I had also done some Googling before bed and found somewhere that stated each pop is 30 base hammers, and since I have no multipliers in the city, that's all I'd get. Hence why it's require 2pop right now.

Anyway, new turn is up. First the power/demos:

So something to think about for this turn that need to decide on. I know I've been decimating my empire with whips recently, so that's certainly something helping to keep me on the bottom of the scoreboard....but to I just keep it up for now? So first up....do I do the inefficient 3-pop whip of the Settler out of Sleepy this turn? Basically I'd be whipping off those 3 mines and then spend the next many turns regrowing on stuff....possibly a Barracks followed by units? Or simply skipping the Barracks and making units? Or I just keep the slow build going and get the settler in 3 turns. This settler would be the one for the 8S1W of Happy spot.



Next up relates to my earlier question. The Library out of Hungry. Do I just continue slow building it, such that it comes out in 3 turns and the city grows in 3?



Or do I put 3 more hammers into it (to get it to 60/90) and then 1-pop whip it next turn?



Thoughts Mindy? Now next turn we'll be settling 3 cities. Both islands and the 5S of Happy spot. I can't even guess what this is going to do to our economy, but I would hope it will be a benefit.
Also I'm going to have to get various cities back onto making military (if they aren't already), since I need to get an Axe over to Stone city (right now the settler has an Archer with it) to always have at least those 2 defenders in it. And once Grimace sees me on the island, he could possibly decide to send some Gallics/Chariots over there assuming it would be a lightly defended city....which it will be for awhile. So I need to get defenders over to it ASAP.
This is kind of why I think I want to get the Settler & Library whipped out as early as possible so both cities can join the military pumping.

On a side/similar note....no way I'm going to be razing Commodore's city anytime soon. He's stuffing it with Archers. It currently has a CG2D1 Archer, a CG1D1 Archer, an Axe, & a Chariot in it. And he's got another CG1D1 Archer about to enter it next turn. And he'll chop out his Terrace for the culture, and then likely also stick a Walls in there (he's already got his Stone, remember). So yeah, that city is there to stay.

[MindyMcCready]

Anyone know how to calculate when you are able to 1-pop whip something (such as a Library)?
So I have currently 45/90 hammers and food store of 14/30 (pop 5). If I get 12 more hammers and 4 food this turn, will I be able to 1-pop whip next turn? Right now I it needs 2 pop to whip it.
Or do I need to get 9 hammers & 6 food? Or do I need to get 6 hammers & 8 food?
Those are my current options.
Basically, which one will allow me to 1-pop whip it next turn? Hopefully someone is able to see this right now, since I kind of need the answer within the next hour or less.

As Thoth said you get 30H from a 1-pop whip.
1-pop = 30H
2-pop = 50H
3-pop = 70H,...etc

I'm going to point out a few more things since your question implies that you're missing quite a bit of the basic mechanics:
-Your food box is largely a non-factor.
-When you whip, whatever food level you have in the foodbox is maintained. So your 14F will still be 14F after you whip.
-Food to grow increases by +2 each city size
-Grow to Size2 = 22F, Size3=24F, Size4-26F,...S6=30F
-So at size6 with no granary you have a 1:1 food-hammer conversion. At size 7 you have a negative food-hammer conversion.
-The granary lets you keep 1/2 your food after you grow so whipping at Size 6 and regrowing costs 15F to regrow and gets you 30H. That's why you whip.
-One of the most valuable tricks is whipping at the granary at the right time to get it built before you grow since your food box is maintained. I think that I've seen you do that from the SS,...but just want to verify after reading your above question.

As Thoth also pointed out modifiers affect this. So a forge, instead of getting you 30H it gets you 37H (truncates I guess). So you'll be able to 1-pop whip when you're 37 hammers away from completing a build.

OR gives you another 25% boost so you can 1-pop whip when you are 45 hammers away.

There are other tricks like Overflow whipping.
-Say you are very close to completing something and intend to get a fast start on the next build. Say a Lighthouse. If you were at 59H/60H and whipped right before it completed,....then you would have 29H out the gate on the next build. You should think about this wrt the markets coming out. This allows a more efficient 2X 1-pop whip rather than an inefficient 2-pop whip (happiness permitting). Trying to get out a market in this way and then jumping into a worker build to let some of the happiness wear off is an option for example.

Last: You must have 1H invested in a build or the whip cost is increased by 1-pop I think. That's a dry whip which is very painful efficiency-wise.

I'm going to try to find you some light reading.

[MindyMcCready]

So something to think about for this turn that need to decide on. I know I've been decimating my empire with whips recently, so that's certainly something helping to keep me on the bottom of the scoreboard....but to I just keep it up for now?

No I don't think we want to whip anymore unless it an efficient 1-pop whip or for unhappy reasons.

So first up....do I do the inefficient 3-pop whip of the Settler out of Sleepy this turn?

Definately not. 1-pop whipping off a mine is ok. 2-pop whipping off a mine is only good during emergencies or for getting something in contention.

Now that our urgent city site settlers have all been made we need to start transitioning over to a cottage economy. Every riverside cottage should be worked and I think that it's time to even get started on some of those other grassland cottages since we're going to break through 12 cities soon.

Our thinking should be shifting from 'every city matters' to 'every commerce matters'.

Or I just keep the slow build going and get the settler in 3 turns. This settler would be the one for the 8S1W of Happy spot.

So long as we have the 5S choke, then we can wait the extra turns for the better choke.

The Library out of Hungry. Do I just continue slow building it, such that it comes out in 3 turns and the city grows in 3?

We need to get to currency ASAP so every good commerce tile should be worked. Those mines are not that useful nor is a library while we have tech turned off.

but I would hope it will be a benefit.

Well I think that the first island will give an instant positive return. The second island city will have a positive return once Currency is in. The third city will cost a little but is a solid investment.

This is kind of why I think I want to get the Settler & Library whipped out as early as possible so both cities can join the military pumping.

Yes, we'll need more military. We should be able to run a little lighter than average due to the 4 choke points. Yes, the south island will need above average deterrant. The GJ island,...not sure that we should bother putting any real units in there and rely on MAD as our deterrant at least early on. Bottom line, GJ can take it if he wants to and we can't stop that. Just a couple of archers to stop the zero cost opportunism and an single galley easy raze from Master Commodore.

Our ICTR ambitious should like to the south where we have a better chance of defending. Think twice before settling next to a hill down there. Axes to attack out against those G3s.

On a side/similar note....no way I'm going to be razing Commodore's city anytime soon.

Ok. Fact of life for us. Probably a good thing that we're not over tempted. If we see him land a Great Artist we'll probably have to assume the worst.

[HitAnyKey]

Ok, got the idea regarding whipping...I think.

Plan for Stone city was to drop an Axe in there (to support the Archer) for now. And leave it at that for awhile. Or at some point swap out the Axe for another Archer, when available.

Down in the SE....here's where our city will be and what the surrounding looks like:



And that's it for me for awhile today...got a conference call in a few, and then a bunch of stuff to work on.

[MindyMcCready]

Ok, got the idea regarding whipping...I think.

Good to hear.

And that's it for me for awhile today...got a conference call in a few, and then a bunch of stuff to work on.

Well you've got something to fix. I can tell that you're not working those 3/0/2 tiles. That is a mistake as I've repeatedly pointed out. (Forgive me if I'm harassing you incorrectly )Those 6 comm represent 30% of your free commerce. Not working them means getting to Currency 30% slower. WE NEED CURRENCY!

There's another one by Sore that's not being worked while I can see 2 mines being worked. Those mines are riverside so it's forgivable and it's actally good if they're being worked by Stressed while building a worker.

Just to make sure that I've harassed you enough about efficiency and output:

GHM vs riverside grass cottage in Sleepy. Back of the envelope assuming 1-pop whips:
1/3/0 = 1F +50% + 3H = 4.5 output.
2/0/2 = 2F+50% + 2C = 5 output.

Since you have a library in capital,...50% breakeven rate for illustration.
2/0/2 = 2F+50% + 2Cx50%tax + 2Cx50%Sci+25% library = 3 + 1 + 1.25 = 5.25

So you can see that total output you're ahead with these on a riverside cottage that's never been worked, let alone 10T later.

[HitAnyKey]

Well you've got something to fix. I can tell that you're not working those 3/0/2 tiles. That is a mistake as I've repeatedly pointed out. (Forgive me if I'm harassing you incorrectly )Those 6 comm represent 30% of your free commerce. Not working them means getting to Currency 30% slower. WE NEED CURRENCY!

There's another one by Sore that's not being worked while I can see 2 mines being worked. Those mines are riverside so it's forgivable and it's actally good if they're being worked by Stressed while building a worker.

I already fixed Hungry before logging out to it working the 3 lake tiles. I had Sore working the mine because I felt we needed to get that next WB (and then military) out as quickly as possible. But I'll take your smack on the back of the head and log back in later to switch it to working the lake & crab too.

Sleepy had that 1 Cottage it wasn't working because if I switch from the GHM to the Cottage, the settler comes out 1 turn later. Was going to switch it to the Cottage as soon as doing so doesn't delay the settler. But will switch it to the Cottage now as well, I guess. With these 3 new cities next turn, that settler can handle the delay.

[MindyMcCready]

I had Sore working the mine because I felt we needed to get that next WB (and then military) out as quickly as possible.

The WB gets the hammer 35% boost, so definately a solid reason. Military,....probably better to produce with a 10T whip cycle while working maximum output tiles.

You should start thinking about city specialization down the road.

Cottages are still great given time. However, since our next couple of techs include Metal Casting + COL we have the option of going for a hammer economy. Caste system hammer boost + better workshops + wealth builds are very competitive if not better in the short-to-medium term. And that's all we might have. A hammer economy is probably very necessary for us.

So choose your commerce cities carefully and build libraries and stuff in them. Hammer cities will not benefit from libraries or markets since wealth doesn't get any multipliers. We can't afford any infrastructure overbuilds given the T120 Doomsday clock.

[MindyMcCready]

:LOL: TakingMyCornJoey

I thought it best to put that here rather than your PBEM thread.