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Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves
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There's been a fairly solid consensus on RB/CFC/CivFR being the only real contenders for winning, but if we all get bogged down fighting each other could Apolyton/Univers catch up? I'm not including CP as I think they are in an awful geographical and perhaps diplomatic position.
"We are open to all opinions as long as they are the same as ours."
(July 2nd, 2013, 17:53)Nicolae Carpathia Wrote: Nope, it's just spies can't be caught in neutral territory. I lose spies all the fucking time to non-open borders I misread/misinterpreted the CivFr message. For some reason I didn't get that they were referring to Apolyton, I interpreted it instead as them talking about UniversCiv who is actually HRE.  I think Apolyton is a juicer target all the way around. Better infrastructure, less units. The only drawback is that CivPlayers would fit more neatly into our borders. But, the problem there is that we would then have a much longer contiguous border with CivFr and would border the two strongest teams in the game, making our position more difficult to defend in a dogpile. If we split Apolyton with CivFr we would still likely have a narrow border with CivFr that would be easier to defend. And yes, this is getting the cart waaaaay out ahead of the horse, so to speak. Even with all of that, we gain most (for now while we consolidate Inca) by letting them fight it out and bleed one another. Ideally we could join in decisively once we've had a breather and could blitz CFC when they're a bit winded from the fighting with CivFr. But, I doubt that CivFr fights very hard/long vs. CFC unless we're involved too. They won't want us to get too far ahead by sitting out while #2 and #3 fight. Bottom line, I'd prefer to let them fight, but I'm not sure CivFr will do anything meaningful to CFC if we sit on the sidelines. --- I could see a scenario where Apolyton could tech ahead enough to do some damage to us/CivFr if either or both of us are preoccupied elsewhere and not teching rapidly, but they don't have enough land/tiles in play to make that advantage decisive and win the game. Univers doesn't have enough tech strength to take advantage of their better than average population, so I don't see them doing more than keeping up with us, given the lead we built prior to going to war. Once they build up an army to fight, which they'll have to do eventually, their tech rate will drop just as ours has done. More likely, though, the current game leaders would wrap up their conflict before this could even happen. Just my opinion here, I don't know how good this evaluation truly is.
July 2nd, 2013, 20:27
(This post was last modified: July 2nd, 2013, 20:29 by antisocialmunky.)
I understand what CP meant when they talked about CivFR being really prying. I think we should see if they have any plans with the Aztecs or Inca.
Reply: Quote:Hi,
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." “I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Agreed. We have offered to help them with CFC which they have completely ignored. If they have other plans, it's up to them to make the proposal.
The claim that they are serious about the war with CFC is interesting, but is there any C&D (like solid power or ww increases) to back that up? So far it feels like a whole lot of nothing is happening at their borders.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw
I don't think the "let's leave it to them" or "what have they ever done for us?" attitude will do us any good with CivFr. Let's face it: We need a powerfull ally in this game and WPC are not that. We can't afford to get diplomatically isolated. I think we need to go on a charm offensive with CivFr and solidify our relationship with discussion over a common enemy. They're slow to respond to messages but we haven't really offered anything concrete (and sent a firm but demanding email about their elephant gift). It would be great if Speaker could, er, Speak to his old Ladder contacts in their team.
BTW: People talking about attacking apolyton haven't really looked at the map. Their core cities are far too far away to conquer and even a scorched earth campaign is not worth it because (a) Apolyton aren't currently a massive threat because they're so small and (b) they are technologically advanced. And talk of a conspiracy war between CFC and CivFr is so unlikely as to be unproductive.
July 3rd, 2013, 05:17
(This post was last modified: July 3rd, 2013, 05:19 by SleepingMoogle.)
Well, we offered to work together the moment CFC declared on CivFr and they ignored that. We sent them a follow-up message and they ignored that too. And now they suddenly come out saying that this is a hot war, even when C&D suggests that is not the case, and they are asking us what our plans are with two civs that aren't CFC.
We want to be friendly with these guys, but there are a number of indications that being wary about their motives at this point is a wise thing to do. I'd like to believe that what they tell us is true, but are we going to completely ignore the possibility that CivFr is working with CFC and keep up a phony war to keep us in the dark about an upcoming dogpile? I can certainly see CFC masterminding it and having their partner be the hand that reaches out to us since it would be very transparent if that were to come from CFC. I think we'd have much more success in either scenario if we could convince CivFr to divide up CFC rather than focus on civs that aren't serious contenders to win. We would knock out a major contender (only it would be CFC instead of RB), one that we both border so it's easy to coordinate an attack from both sides, and there's equal spoils for both of us if we're successful, whereas a dogpile on RB would see no cities or land gained for the French. Plus we both dislike these guys due to their douchebag rules lawyering, and they are already at war with them. So what reason would there be for them not to do it?
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw
(July 3rd, 2013, 05:17)SleepingMoogle Wrote: Well, we offered to work together the moment CFC declared on CivFr and they ignored that. We sent them a follow-up message and they ignored that too. And now they suddenly come out saying that this is a hot war, even when C&D suggests that is not the case, and they are asking us what our plans are with two civs that aren't CFC. To be fair, we told them that if they wanted assistance from us, they shouldn't send assistance to the Germans. I really doubt that this is some sort of deception that CFC and CivFr has colluded on - I think it's quite clear that CivFr tries to keep diplo channels open and wants to avoid us joining on the side of CFC against them - nothing less, nothing more. All they say about the war with CFC is that it's about to turn hot, and we should probably be able to tell something about that in the next 5t or so. But given that CivFr burned a former Spanish city and killed a bunch of CFC units I think they're unlikely to make peace, if they haven't already. I really think we should try to avoid evasive answers to CivFr here. Say that there is plenty of fight left in the Germans, but that we are confident of victory, and that we currently have no further plans for conquest after the German war is finished. (July 3rd, 2013, 05:17)SleepingMoogle Wrote: I think we'd have much more success in either scenario if we could convince CivFr to divide up CFC rather than focus on civs that aren't serious contenders to win. We would knock out a major contender (only it would be CFC instead of RB), one that we both border so it's easy to coordinate an attack from both sides, and there's equal spoils for both of us if we're successful, whereas a dogpile on RB would see no cities or land gained for the French. Plus we both dislike these guys due to their douchebag rules lawyering, and they are already at war with them. So what reason would there be for them not to do it? I'd actually prefer us not to go to war with CFC on T175 right ahead. One, we have the risk of being attacked by Apolyton and CivPlayers. Apolyton has janissaries (ie we must have musketmen to counter that), and CivPlayers are decent players that has shown that they can whip effectively. Two, we need time to make our new cities productive and recover our economy.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
Draft to WPC:
Draft to WPC Wrote:Beta, 30ish is a total guess, almost certainly on the high end, but it should be fine. Any issues with this? As for how to respond to CivFr - we definitely need to send them something, but I'd like to focus all our energy on handling this turn first. The CivFr message can wait a day or two.
My tally of killed units comes up to 19. This is from the live streams, so it does not include any units we killed on T152 (none, I think).
So saying 30 is probably too much. We killed 5 Longbows, which were a pain to dislodge from the hills. And we lost 13 maces and a few other units. mh
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