After rereading day 1 during the night, I have to say that I'm disappointed with Uberfish. Near the end of day 1 I agreed with a post by Injera which said that he could only see two options: either Uberfish was a villager or Uberfish was a werewolf that the other wolves already decided to sacrifice. It ended up that he was a villager. But his lack of defense was so strong that I could only understand as a sacrificial wolf behaviour, that didn't want to give anymore info to the village. I can't understand why he didn't even try to defend at all, which could make us at least have more information about the uberfish voters (there were a lot of them that i felt that didn't explain their votes well).
What happened with this, in my mind, is that day 1 is a very confusing day, way more than the usual from WW games. The day seemed to go on a circular pattern, without ever going forward (until, quoting Injera again, the dam broke up and Uber was lynched), and it's really hard to read, let alone take something from it.
I'm finding it very difficult to have good reads on people. I start suspecting someone and a later post makes me think they are innocent, and the other way around is true too.
So, I use this as an introduction to my comment on Gaspar vote to lynch me. When I read it, I thought Gaspar was trying to go against the constant posts that X, Y player is definetely innocent. I would agree with this. Of course, it's impossible to play the game without making your own list of likely innocents and likely wolves, even if it happens unconsciously. But I have a bad memory about WW3 that I lost as a villager when 1 of the 3 wolves that were still alive at the end of the game (GES), was in my "confirmed innocent" list for a long time. I would never have voted to lynch him, even though he wasn't a really confirmed innocent. So, what i'm trying to say is that only one mistake in this regard can cost you the game.
Like I said, I'm not against this lists of confirmed innocents and likely wolves. But it started to worry me when I saw Erebus putting my name in the cathegory of "highly likely villagers". I never played WW with Erebus (maybe he read one of the games that I played), but I question why is he so sure about my innocence? He doesn't know my game pattern. So, I thought that this lists that keep showing can be influencing other players, which I think is bad. Especially since some lists, like Serdoa's, for example, aren't anything near settled in stone. He keeps changing them (which is likely to be expected and is right), but the effects may still keep going.
The problem is that once you put a certain type of glasses in the comments of a player, it's hard to go back and it's hard to read them with their real value. Like I said earlier about GES, which I thought was a villager, and I can say about Sareln in WW5 and in this game too, I was reading all his comments through a "his a werewolf" view.
But, in the end, Gaspar voted on me because I haven't been posting enough. Well, I don't know what to say other then trying to show the way I play: I take a long time to read the posts, a lot of them being pretty long, and I don't think posting just for posting helps. I'm having difficulties to find good clues and leads on wolves, so I won't post things in which even I don't believe. Instead, I try to ask questions. And this is where I will complain a bit: I asked a question to Gaspar, Roland, Zakalwe and Meiz before Gaspar told me that I was too quiet. But Gaspar and Roland didn't answer my questions (maybe Roland did, but he didn't point it especifically and I have trouble with his posts, due to them being long and with a difficult writing style). So I feel a bit bad that you say that I'm not speaking when people don't answer my questions...
But back to the game. I think Injera made a good post about day 1:
I'd only add that there was also the little scooter bandwagon during day 1, which will be important for my later arguments.
Before that, I want to adress two specific players:
Sareln was my main suspect on day 1. I'll rest the case a bit for now, though. I tried to hear the other players opinion about him to see if I was not seeing things. In the end, there's something about Sareln's post that make me suspect him. I really liked Zak post about Sareln, when he answered my question about him. Guess I just can't understand Sareln very well. So, I'll hold on into it for sometime, while saying again for people to look at my previous comments.
Injera has had some suspicion against based on lack of content. I find this totally unfair and it further leads me to beleive that some people aren't really reading all the thread (the same thing about my unanswered questions). I find myself constantly agreeing with Injera (not much on his suspects, but with his thoughts about the game). I already quoted his day 1 analysis and his thoughts on Uberfish. I also liked his own post about disliking the "liekly innocent" posts. Maybe he has a similar way of thinking then me, so that's why I like what he posts. But things like "he's a newbie villager" or "he's being commanded by wolves" doesn't make any sense to me.
But about the game in general now. I think there's a lot of contradictions happening in this game. Nobody cared to comment on my post that showed that Erebus and Uberfish made a similar differentiation between Zak's and TT's post (which was one of the arguments against Uberfish), which already was a contradiction. In fact, I can tell that is probable that nobody gave it much thought because the post was, in fact, wrong, albeit not obviously. The post from TT that gave the base for Erebus thoughts was done after Uberfish already posted his "suspicious results", so they weren't really making the same difference between Zak and TT.
But it goes further. People already called Zak on calling TT for something that he also did regarding Uberfish gambit. But when people voted on the scooter bandwagon, they were propelled by a Zak post that said that only scooter reacted to the post as a "obvious joke". But that's not true. Injera also stated that it was an obvious joke (he used those words), Meiz also thought it to be a joke and, if I remember correctly, Erebus too. So, why pick scooter? And zak vote was followed by Rowain and Serdoa, without further arguments, which makes me believe they were basing it on the same thing.
But my worst suspicion is with meiz behaviour. I already asked him about it and he said he was joking in his posts. The question I made to Zak was fairly similar, also asking him about a "contradiction" of some sorts. I asked Meiz about why he suspected scooter, then stopped, then came back with a vote. I asked Zakalwe the same about Sareln. And I find that Zak answer seems to be more like a villager. I think he passed the idea that it's his right as a villager to forgo a suspicion and attack again later. Meiz said that one of his comments, post 176, was a joke. Here's the post
What I understand from this post is that Meiz wants both scooter and TT to keep on the block. So, I think he suspected both of them. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, which would make my suspicion doesn't have that strong of a base.
But, let's go on with the case. I think Meiz suspected scooter, based on the previous post and on these other posts:
I think is best if everyone read the sequence of posts, because the context is very important. I think Meiz started suspecting scooter when the bandwagon formed. He received 3 votes quickly, including one from Serdoa and zakalwe. The first post quoted is Meiz reaction to scooter voting in Zakalwe. The second is Meiz reaction after scooter switched to a no vote, after giving his reasons. In both posts, Meiz seemed to be taunting scooter, in my eyes. But the bandwagon faded after scooter no vote, because the scooter voters were content with his explanations. Meiz second posted quote leads me to believe that he wasn't.
(This is probably pretty confusing, like i said, it's better to read those posts in the thread).
But after that, the Uberfish bandwagon started, lead by zak and catwalk. After it started, Meiz posted this:
After the Uber bandwagon, Meiz focus completely switched from scooter. Coincidentally, the same people led the bandwagons against scooter and Uber, which made Meiz comment on both occasions. It seems strange to me, because he seemed to be the only one insatisfied with scooter response, but few posts later he forgot about scooter, changing his target to the same target that the leaders of the scooter bandwagon looked to. This is a big inconsistency, in my eyes.
Now, on day 2, Meiz made a case against scooter, with some good arguments. But he left TT out.
Maybe i'm misunderstanding some of Meiz's posts, but it seemed to be pretty suspicious behaviour. I would be voting Meiz, if wasn't for the fact that his other posts, besides this, seems to be good posts. His big one today was a pretty good post, for example. So, it's best if I can hear other's opinion about this.
Another thing i'm finding pretty strange is some of Catwalk posts. They are not particularly wolfish, but let me show an example, with the bolded parts more important:
I found this directing of comments to be strange. Maybe it's a different playing style, which I can respect, but why always the same people? Why make a separate group from the rest of the players? It has a weird tone about it. I can understand that people get well with each other outside of the game, but taking this to the game is not good. It's another thing that can lead to a wolf being made into a "confirmed innocent".
Sorry about the confusing post. If anything isn't clear, please ask me, so that I can explain it trying to be more clear. I will try to give some input on other people theories now.
What happened with this, in my mind, is that day 1 is a very confusing day, way more than the usual from WW games. The day seemed to go on a circular pattern, without ever going forward (until, quoting Injera again, the dam broke up and Uber was lynched), and it's really hard to read, let alone take something from it.
I'm finding it very difficult to have good reads on people. I start suspecting someone and a later post makes me think they are innocent, and the other way around is true too.
So, I use this as an introduction to my comment on Gaspar vote to lynch me. When I read it, I thought Gaspar was trying to go against the constant posts that X, Y player is definetely innocent. I would agree with this. Of course, it's impossible to play the game without making your own list of likely innocents and likely wolves, even if it happens unconsciously. But I have a bad memory about WW3 that I lost as a villager when 1 of the 3 wolves that were still alive at the end of the game (GES), was in my "confirmed innocent" list for a long time. I would never have voted to lynch him, even though he wasn't a really confirmed innocent. So, what i'm trying to say is that only one mistake in this regard can cost you the game.
Like I said, I'm not against this lists of confirmed innocents and likely wolves. But it started to worry me when I saw Erebus putting my name in the cathegory of "highly likely villagers". I never played WW with Erebus (maybe he read one of the games that I played), but I question why is he so sure about my innocence? He doesn't know my game pattern. So, I thought that this lists that keep showing can be influencing other players, which I think is bad. Especially since some lists, like Serdoa's, for example, aren't anything near settled in stone. He keeps changing them (which is likely to be expected and is right), but the effects may still keep going.
The problem is that once you put a certain type of glasses in the comments of a player, it's hard to go back and it's hard to read them with their real value. Like I said earlier about GES, which I thought was a villager, and I can say about Sareln in WW5 and in this game too, I was reading all his comments through a "his a werewolf" view.
But, in the end, Gaspar voted on me because I haven't been posting enough. Well, I don't know what to say other then trying to show the way I play: I take a long time to read the posts, a lot of them being pretty long, and I don't think posting just for posting helps. I'm having difficulties to find good clues and leads on wolves, so I won't post things in which even I don't believe. Instead, I try to ask questions. And this is where I will complain a bit: I asked a question to Gaspar, Roland, Zakalwe and Meiz before Gaspar told me that I was too quiet. But Gaspar and Roland didn't answer my questions (maybe Roland did, but he didn't point it especifically and I have trouble with his posts, due to them being long and with a difficult writing style). So I feel a bit bad that you say that I'm not speaking when people don't answer my questions...
But back to the game. I think Injera made a good post about day 1:
Injera Wrote:Briefly (more tomorrow, I promise) here's how I see Day 1: Votes were spread across the board, with TT having a few extras. There wasn't at least two viable villagers as candidates, so the wolves had no place to spread their votes out and push on anyone until the dam broke and uberfish became a viable candidate. No one did more to make that happen than zak and Cat. zak had been building a case against uberfish for the entire Day, painting him as a bad and unhelpful villager, and worthy of lynching even if he was innocent. Eventually, as the day headed towards a close and there still weren't multiple consensus candidates, he openly accused uberfish of being a wolf. At this point the vote dam broke and uber was lynched in a landslide.
I'd only add that there was also the little scooter bandwagon during day 1, which will be important for my later arguments.
Before that, I want to adress two specific players:
Sareln was my main suspect on day 1. I'll rest the case a bit for now, though. I tried to hear the other players opinion about him to see if I was not seeing things. In the end, there's something about Sareln's post that make me suspect him. I really liked Zak post about Sareln, when he answered my question about him. Guess I just can't understand Sareln very well. So, I'll hold on into it for sometime, while saying again for people to look at my previous comments.
Injera has had some suspicion against based on lack of content. I find this totally unfair and it further leads me to beleive that some people aren't really reading all the thread (the same thing about my unanswered questions). I find myself constantly agreeing with Injera (not much on his suspects, but with his thoughts about the game). I already quoted his day 1 analysis and his thoughts on Uberfish. I also liked his own post about disliking the "liekly innocent" posts. Maybe he has a similar way of thinking then me, so that's why I like what he posts. But things like "he's a newbie villager" or "he's being commanded by wolves" doesn't make any sense to me.
But about the game in general now. I think there's a lot of contradictions happening in this game. Nobody cared to comment on my post that showed that Erebus and Uberfish made a similar differentiation between Zak's and TT's post (which was one of the arguments against Uberfish), which already was a contradiction. In fact, I can tell that is probable that nobody gave it much thought because the post was, in fact, wrong, albeit not obviously. The post from TT that gave the base for Erebus thoughts was done after Uberfish already posted his "suspicious results", so they weren't really making the same difference between Zak and TT.
But it goes further. People already called Zak on calling TT for something that he also did regarding Uberfish gambit. But when people voted on the scooter bandwagon, they were propelled by a Zak post that said that only scooter reacted to the post as a "obvious joke". But that's not true. Injera also stated that it was an obvious joke (he used those words), Meiz also thought it to be a joke and, if I remember correctly, Erebus too. So, why pick scooter? And zak vote was followed by Rowain and Serdoa, without further arguments, which makes me believe they were basing it on the same thing.
But my worst suspicion is with meiz behaviour. I already asked him about it and he said he was joking in his posts. The question I made to Zak was fairly similar, also asking him about a "contradiction" of some sorts. I asked Meiz about why he suspected scooter, then stopped, then came back with a vote. I asked Zakalwe the same about Sareln. And I find that Zak answer seems to be more like a villager. I think he passed the idea that it's his right as a villager to forgo a suspicion and attack again later. Meiz said that one of his comments, post 176, was a joke. Here's the post
Meiz Wrote:It's incredible hard to resist a bandwagonOnly reason holding me back is that I'd like to keep TT on the block, right next to scooter
What I understand from this post is that Meiz wants both scooter and TT to keep on the block. So, I think he suspected both of them. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, which would make my suspicion doesn't have that strong of a base.
But, let's go on with the case. I think Meiz suspected scooter, based on the previous post and on these other posts:
Meiz Wrote:Cross posted with scooter. IMO Zakalwe has explained his reasons and reactions well, so your accusation surprises me quite a bit. Getting desperate, or do I just have some strange bias on getting so big villager reads from Zak?
Meiz Wrote:Part of me wants to understand
But bigger part thinks you are backing down because of the strong reactions on favor of Zak...
I don't think a villager should be that frustrated of not having wolf clues on day 1. It's more than expected.
I think is best if everyone read the sequence of posts, because the context is very important. I think Meiz started suspecting scooter when the bandwagon formed. He received 3 votes quickly, including one from Serdoa and zakalwe. The first post quoted is Meiz reaction to scooter voting in Zakalwe. The second is Meiz reaction after scooter switched to a no vote, after giving his reasons. In both posts, Meiz seemed to be taunting scooter, in my eyes. But the bandwagon faded after scooter no vote, because the scooter voters were content with his explanations. Meiz second posted quote leads me to believe that he wasn't.
(This is probably pretty confusing, like i said, it's better to read those posts in the thread).
But after that, the Uberfish bandwagon started, lead by zak and catwalk. After it started, Meiz posted this:
Meiz Wrote:I'm still on re-read #1 on page 15, but wanted to chime in already. First of all, what's with all these "I believe he probably is a villager, but I'll still vote him" - comments?
Based on what I've seen so far, I'm already getting quite confident on the innocence of: Zakalwe, Serdoa, Ichabod. Every post so far is in line with the way they have played as villagers so far. I'm trusting them quite a bit already, which hopefully won't come back to bite me
My "could very well be a villager" list states: Catwalk, Rowain, Mr. Nice Guy, Roland. Again they seem to be in line of the way I've seen them play and I can't really find much sinister thoughts. I know the Catwalk part will raise many eye browns, but that's just the honest way I feel about his game so far.
I still like TT up there and I don't see Zak's theory regarding uberfish impossible at all. Third candidate that has really raised my suspicions is... surprise surprise, Lewwyn.
He has quite a lot of posts but the general feel I'm getting is that he is replacing contributions with humor. And everyone expects that on day 1 so he gets away with it easily. I also find it really strange that the biggest band-wagoner ever lived suspects Sareln because of bandwagoning, on day 1. Serdoa, it surprised me that you had listed Lewwyn as "pretty sure innocent" (and he was the only one up there). I get a big villager vibe from you, so could you explain in more detail what makes you think so? Just because he acts the way we expect him to act?
After the Uber bandwagon, Meiz focus completely switched from scooter. Coincidentally, the same people led the bandwagons against scooter and Uber, which made Meiz comment on both occasions. It seems strange to me, because he seemed to be the only one insatisfied with scooter response, but few posts later he forgot about scooter, changing his target to the same target that the leaders of the scooter bandwagon looked to. This is a big inconsistency, in my eyes.
Now, on day 2, Meiz made a case against scooter, with some good arguments. But he left TT out.
Maybe i'm misunderstanding some of Meiz's posts, but it seemed to be pretty suspicious behaviour. I would be voting Meiz, if wasn't for the fact that his other posts, besides this, seems to be good posts. His big one today was a pretty good post, for example. So, it's best if I can hear other's opinion about this.
Another thing i'm finding pretty strange is some of Catwalk posts. They are not particularly wolfish, but let me show an example, with the bolded parts more important:
Catwalk Wrote:Switching my mayor vote to zakalwe, as Meiz seems to be convinced uberfish is merely a joking villager. He's a wolf in fool's clothing!
Catwalk Wrote:I don't feel confident about either of the mayor candidates. I'd still like to support either Meiz or zakalwe, who both read fairly innocent to me. If both of you agree, we have 3 votes and there's no clear winner at present. As stated before, the mayor race is pretty important this time around with no seer and a wolf with voting powers.
I found this directing of comments to be strange. Maybe it's a different playing style, which I can respect, but why always the same people? Why make a separate group from the rest of the players? It has a weird tone about it. I can understand that people get well with each other outside of the game, but taking this to the game is not good. It's another thing that can lead to a wolf being made into a "confirmed innocent".
Sorry about the confusing post. If anything isn't clear, please ask me, so that I can explain it trying to be more clear. I will try to give some input on other people theories now.
