Serdoa's SPOILER-Thread: I am legend?

[Serdoa]

Which civilization to play is the second big decision when starting a game. There are three things that civilizations govern

1) Unique Building
2) Unique Unit
3) Starting Techs

Before we look at each civilization individually, lets talk about these. 

Unique Buildings are a variant of a generic building, normally providing stronger or additional effects or changing the cost or tech at which the building is available. If your UB is the variant to one that is normally built then it is great. You just get benefits. It gets trickier if it is a building one does not build normally, or not everywhere. A typical trap are buildings that you would not build in every city but that now provide additional happiness, so your game-plan starts to include them in every city. Yes, you can grow those cities bigger now - but you need to invest in a building you'd normally not use. Depending on circumstances, that might actually be detrimental to your game and it would have been better to secure a global happiness resource instead.

The same that is true for UBs is even more true for Unique Units. We had quite a few games of players basically throwing their game because they really wanted to make use of their UU. "I have to press the advantage I have with my Praetorians, they will be outdated soon!" was a common misconception and led to wars that the player was neither prepared nor in a position to fight. Not to speak about the look at it from the others players perspective: "We have to kill him before he can use his Praetorians!" was also common. 


And lastly, starting techs: 6 techs of which you get two at the start. Two cost 60, two 50, two 40 beakers. So, in theory, the difference should be not too big, no matter what you choose. Sure, Myst and The Wheel are most expensive, while Agri and Hunting are cheapest and you can argue that getting the two most expensive ones is 40 beaker difference to the two cheapest ones, meaning you get one tech for free. Though I'd say it does not work like that. What it really comes down to is when do you need which tech? For example, Myst can be ignored for quite some time, while getting BW as fast as possible can be more important than anything else. In that case, starting with Mining / Agri and having the chance to go directly into BW-research is worth more than the 30 beaker difference from starting with Wheel and Myst. On the other hand, if you want to secure a religion, not starting with Myst is ... brave.

So, do I therefore believe that choice of civilization is unimportant? No, I don't. All 3 parts together, as small a change as any one in itself is, do make for a rather impactful decision. I do however strongly believe that traits have more influence over your whole game than civilization has. Insofar does it seem smart to start in a snake pick with your preferred trait-combo and only afterwards pick between several civilizations that synergize with that choice.

[Serdoa]

I'll preface my ratings with mentioning that I don't expect our map to have overly big bodies of water. However I also expect to at least be able to make use of water units and buildings and them not being completely useless. 

My rating scheme is for each of UU and UB a civ can gain 1-5 points, with 1 meaning "Has only few or niche uses" and 5 meaning "Is a must build in nearly every city that can somewhat make use of it" while 3 means middle ground that has its uses. Techs only achieve 2 - 4 points, as I believe the differences are much smaller and also depend on the map (Fishing can be a 5+ if you have a fishing-start).

Civilization	Unique Unit	Unique Building	Starting Techs	Points	Opinion
America	Minute Man (Musketman)	Immigration Station (Harbor)	Fishing / Agriculture	3 / 1 / 2 = 6	I don't think America is a strong civilization, even with the change. Minute Man are a nice tool, but nothing more. Immigration Stations are not available in every city, nor do they provide a boost over the generic building that I would value highly. Btw: The 3 GPP are non-specific according to the Civilopedia. How does that work? Are they calculated on every GPP-type you produce in an city with an Immigration Station?
Arabia	Camel Archer (Knight)	Madrassa (Library)	Mysticism / The Wheel	3 / 5 / 3 = 11	Arabias camel archer sure has it's uses and the buffs it gets make it offensively and defensively better than the generic counterpart. I don't think it needed a buff tbh. The Madrassa will be built nearly everywhere in any case and its buffs open up different avenues (culture, GPP-production). The techs are meh tough, expensive but might lead you stranded with a worker that can't do anything sensible but build roads.
Aztec	Jaguar (Swordsman)	Sacrificial Altar (Courthouse)	Mysticism / Hunting	2 / 3 / 3 = 8	At least for this game, I don't see any use for the Jaguar. I doubt we see early war - and even in that, it's not very good. Sneak attacks with Woody2 maybe, but really, who does that? The sacrificial altar is in theory good, in practice I've yet to see someone really be able to pull off its effect in a mp-game, leaving mostly similar to its generic pendant. The tech is meh, as Hunting does not change the issue that you might have nothing to do with your worker early.
Babylon	Bowman (Archer)	Garden (Colosseum)	The Wheel / Agriculture	3 / 5 / 3 = 11	Bowman can help you delay Longbowman as they can get pretty hard to remove from a city with all their buffs. They only get a 3 though, because again I don't expect early aggression, so they might still be outdated when war rolls around. The Garden however is a great UB as it basically is two buildings in one: Colosseum and Aqueduct. You will sooner or later make use of the happiness, the war weariness reduction and the health.  Also: I just realized that Myst now has +1 commerce for the palace. I guess that makes it better overall, as gaining 30+ additional commerce at the start of the game before others get around researching it does make a difference. I'll not change what I wrote but I'll give both civs that came before this one with it +1 point on their tech-score.
Byzantine	Cataphract (Knight)	Hippodrome (Theatre)	Mysticism / The Wheel	4 / 3 / 3 = 10	Stronger Knights? Yes, please. Gaining +2 strength does make a difference. It might make you a target also, but here the map will most likely not allow that to be a factor. The Hippodrome is also better than it's counterpart, having Horses is in mp-games more likely than dye, an additional happy is fine and the cost of the building itself is low enough that even if you wouldn't build it normally, it is not prohibitively expensive.
Carthage	Numidian Cavalry (Horse Archer)	Cothon (Harbor)	Fishing / Mining	3 / 2 / 3 = 8	This one does not spark joy. I mean the NC is not bad, but your opponents will defend with Archers or Spears, which still hurt. In a smaller game that could be irrelevant, but with the amount of area we should all have to ourselves, I don't see it. The cothon is nice or the trade route, if you can make use of it, which often is not the case. Tech-combo is ok and depending on the start might make it viable to go directly to BW.
Celts	Gallic Warrior (Swordsman)	Dun (Walls)	Mysticism / Hunting	2 / 3 / 3 = 8	Gallic Warriors are not adding anything really. Yes, with hills you could do fancy stuff... you won't. The promotion chain is not really what a city attacker needs. Dun on the other hand are fine, especially if you pair it with PRO or have Stone and get them for cheap. But even if not, it just costs a little bit more than a monument and adds security.
China	Cho-Ko-Nu (Crossbowman)	Pavilion (Theatre)	Agriculture / Mining	3 / 2 / 4 = 9	UU is nice and usable. You just have to tech there before it is outdated. It has it's defensive value though, no questions asked. Pavilion on the other hand is great when you want to win culturally. Do you want to win culturally? Why do you play mp then? Techs are the old power-couple, slightly weaker with the mod I think, but it still provides the most essential tools for your worker.
Dutch	East Indiaman (Galleon)	Dike (Levee)	Fishing / Agriculture	2 / 3 / 2 = 7	UU clearly better than original, but who needs it? UB clearly better than original, but who needs it? Basically, if you don't have a map with a higher than standard water amount, who needs this civ?
Egypt	War Chariot (Chariot)	Obelisk (Monument)	Agriculture / The Wheel	2 / 2 / 3 = 7	UU is good, but he point about map dimensions still stands. UB could feed into a priest-bulb strategy, but that is a niche in itself.
English	Redcoat (Rifleman)	Stock Exchange (Bank)	Fishing / Mining	4 / 4 / 2 = 10	The Redcoat does replace the Rifleman and I believe the bonus it gets is making it universally better, not just in some niche scenario. Stock Exchange is a better bank and you already want a bank in many cities so that is an obvious improvement.
Ethiopia	Oromo Warrior (Musketman)	Stele (Monument)	Hunting / Mining	3 / 2 / 2 = 7	Not a fan of the Oromo Warrior, though I can see it's strength in certain scenarios. The time-frame when Muskets are relevant though is relatively small, so you have to upgrade them with gold, which means pre-producing them and so on. No, really not a fan. Stele also does not really do enough to make me feel like I do gain something by it. Obviously in a culture war that can be a boost, but how often do they happen without real war soon after?
France	Musketeer (Musketman)	Salon (Observatory)	The Wheel / Agriculture	4 / 4 / 3 = 11	Musketeer is a special case because it gets 2 movement. And that increases its potential offensively and defensively greatly. Salon is another science-building that you will want in most cities. It's one of those you have to be careful though that you do not spend 150 hammers because you want the free specialist, when with that alone it takes potentially longer than the remaining game to even make up for the cost.
Germany	Riesengarde (Grenadier)	Assembly Plant (Factory)	Hunting / Mining	3 / 3 / 2 = 8	UU as well as UB are good but both are also coming rather late in the game, at a point when much is probably already decided.
Greece	Phalanx (Axeman)	Odeon (Colosseum)	Fishing / Hunting	2 / 5 / 2 = 9	The Phalanx is a good unit but in short: I don't think there is a use-case for it. The Odeon on the other hand is getting enough added benefit that its cost/benefit ratio becomes positive in most cities. I don't think it is as good as the Garden, but you could definitely argue that it is the other way round and the Odeon is stronger than the Garden. Missing happiness leads to citizens not working, missing health just makes them eat more... they really have shown foresight with that one.

Ok, I'll leave it at that for the first part. I've written longer on this than I care to admit.

[Cyneheard]

For America, I think you’re confusing the Civ4 and Civ5+ systems for GPs.

There’s one GPP counter in each city, and based on the sources of GPP (most of which have types; this and overflow are the exceptions), you get mixed odds of which GP you get. Running a Scientist gives base 3GPP that are all of Type: Scientist.
So if it’s 20 Sci Points and 80 typeless, that’s 100% to be a scientist. If it’s 20 Sci, 70 typeless, and 10 Prophet, then it’s 2/3 Sci and 1/3 Prophet. (Note that the game gives you a GP at all if you never run a specialist or have a wonder).

[Serdoa]

Thanks Cyneheard. I really did confuse them, I was thinking about GP-tresholds for each type. Oh well, like I said, I'm rusty and have forgotten about quite a few mechanics I fear. 

But, that does not change my opinion of Americas UB, though the one point is probably a little unfair and it could be as well 2. Not that it matters, America is not the civilization I plan to pick in any case.

[Charriu]

For America, I think you’re confusing the Civ4 and Civ5+ systems for GPs.

There’s one GPP counter in each city, and based on the sources of GPP (most of which have types; this and overflow are the exceptions), you get mixed odds of which GP you get. Running a Scientist gives base 3GPP that are all of Type: Scientist.
So if it’s 20 Sci Points and 80 typeless, that’s 100% to be a scientist. If it’s 20 Sci, 70 typeless, and 10 Prophet, then it’s 2/3 Sci and 1/3 Prophet. (Note that the game gives you a GP at all if you never run a specialist or have a wonder).

Quick input: That's correct and I actually needed to implement a total random creation if you only produce one with typeless points. Will have a full look at your post later.

[BRickAstley]

I think it's a great complement for Charriu that the total range for your ratings is 3-15, but all civs so far are rated from 7-11 with only a single outlier at 6. It speaks to good work balancing everything well.

[DaveV]

IND: I could see a general production bonus, albeit a small one. Something that might not really come into play much in early game as hammer counts are too low and rounding doesn't work out but can be a considerable boost in late game or when chopping greater amounts at once (for example to finish a wonder).

The problem with small production boosts in the early game is that they actually cause you to lose hammers on overflow. Say you have a city that's producing three hammers toward a 10-hammer unit, with a 10% production boost. Since you're not producing enough hammers to receive the boost, it takes you four turns to build the unit and there are two hammers of overflow. Those hammers are multiplied by 10/11, so one of them is stolen by the gremlins of integer truncation. Now we're back to the Civ 2 days of having to micromanage all your cities so they finish all their builds exactly, with no overflow.

[pindicator]

I think RtR flirted with the idea of making all cities 2h plants for IND or even 3h plants, but one was too meh and the other too strong IIRC

[pindicator]

Here is your starting position




Anything in the fog is subject to change.

[Serdoa]

Just a short post: I have not slept at all this night and being awake more than 24 hours now is not that great a feeling. I'll try to go to bed now, but thanks for the screenshot of the start pin and thanks for the reminder of overflow math DaveV, I had forgotten about that as well.