[PB62 Mjmd] Let the Bullgine Run!

[Mjmd]

Micro assumes that A) I want to both tech hunting and AH to improve cow. I think this makes sense for worker efficiency. As mentioned I can also grow city 2 same time frame (revolt turn spent farming rice). B) micro assumes settling west first (gets 1 new food and shares 2 capital food). There looks to be a good city south (or at least a floodplain city maybe sharing / taking wheat maybe not) and as mentioned probably also want one east, but getting the west city up will be most efficient early.

Early worker turns = improve rice > wheat > cow > 2 turns rd
T22 Grow size 3, start settler
T28 worker rds 1 west of cow
T29 settler, 50% research
T30 settle new, worker starts improvig rice, 100% research, take cow 1 turn
T31 2nd city go back to wroking rice
T32 Grow size 4 put worker in, also discover BW. Revolt
T33 2nd city take wheat
T34 rice farm finishes, capital takes wheat back
T35 put warrior in queue 1 turn (keeps all tiles worked) and growth in cap, first worker goes to chop forest
T36 2 pop whip worker, 2nd city takes wheat
T37 2nd worker pops and starts roading either east or south depending where want 3rd. Put settler in queue
T38 chop finishes
T39 settler pops, both workers available for stuff (1 mine hill, 1 improve new city?). 2nd city take cow for 1/3 of next turns and keeps wheat.
Result: 2nd city 0/26 pop3, capital 12/24 pop 2; 2 workers, 1 settler, 3 warriors with 2 more in one and three more turns


To note there is a variant where I whip worker T35 and have both workers chop for a T38 settler. But then workers are out of position. Also, some turns not working improved tiles.

Border pop didn't reveal a ton. There may be a small island near me, so possible 2nd city should go on coast, but if map is tighter (9 tiles, I've never played that close to anyone!), my instinct is to just go max growth efficiency. Also, will probably be scrambling for mainland spots. Northwest city will be on that coast (prob city #5). I did end up going straight south, but will be able to see across lake to Tarkeel capital next turn while still being efficient scouting.

[Amicalola]

Border pop didn't reveal a ton. There may be a small island near me, so possible 2nd city should go on coast, but if map is tighter (9 tiles, I've never played that close to anyone!)

Bah, you were spoiled in PB56.

[Mjmd]

Border pop didn't reveal a ton. There may be a small island near me, so possible 2nd city should go on coast, but if map is tighter (9 tiles, I've never played that close to anyone!)

Bah, you were spoiled in PB56.

You're right I think I was about that close to Cairo, but the terrain was just horrendously advantageous towards me lol, so it didn't feel like it. Also, aggressive is nice on tight maps to say "heh you really want to come my way to settle on flatground".

I do find it funny that PB60, BP61, and now BP62 are all right at 120 tiles / player, but as I mentioned that can be very deceiving. I was envisioning a map more like PB61 where there's like 1.5 to 2 city rings of safety. Nope; 1 city that if I place it 1 tile further east is agro (not that I've found food for that placement yet although I'll know next turn how greedy I want to get). Definitely doesn't look to be PB60 23 tiles between caps lol.

[pindicator]

I agree with not moving to provoke Tarkeel right away and scouting to get more information on the area. We do have the ultimate defensive unit for the era, but we certainly shouldn't piss off too many neighbors without reason. That said, we want to be claiming bonus resources and those are 2 juicy ones.

I'll take a look at the micro in more depth later today and comment more. It would be hard to aim east with the first settler unless we see more food that way, and west is nice for cottages but we're not really looking to cottage anything yet; we still are in the phase of the game where we want our citizens working bonus resources (and very little else).

Do you mind if i were to log in to look around? Wouldn't change anything around, but it helps for getting my bearing. Or a picture of everything with resource bubbles would be fine for now.


Huh, if we had settled on the cow we would have had a ton of food at the capital...

[Mjmd]

Feel free to log in anytime. I was going to do a overall picture when borders popped, but nothing really of note except floodplain delta to south I need to scout out more soon.

There is no food east. So while its tight, unless you want to go foodless, both Tarkeel and I HAVE TO put cities to share capital food. Tarkeel gets the marble and ivory by settling on hill, but there is gems for me, which is a relief. I've been sitting here with 4 calendar resources wondering if Commodore just forgot to put early happy in. Will create two cities pretty near each other, but unless someone is crazy shouldn't create conflict.

First settler is due for west south of rice in micro. Most of my micro is based around working all the improved tiles, so hopefully its approved! That's also why I think I'm going to go mine the grassland river hill that the two early cities can share T39 if nothing else to do pops up.

Ya if we had known maybe..... That being said, I've played multiple games skipping AH for eternity, will be nice to actually get it online for once.


Also met Fable scout south of Tarkeel (JR4 double moved but was kind enough to provide meeting location).

[Mjmd]

T7

Ded lurker requests current world knowledge. Ded lurker gets current world knowledge. Turns out I didn't have to ask JR4, I found him this turn; also 9 tiles away........... I'm not sure the rice is worth racing for, as Fable/JR4 looks to have better territory between them and Tarkeel/Civac. Even if they take the rice I can always settle on the plains hill instead and farm the floodplain. Obviously would prefer to snag rice, but there is a lot better territory within sight NW, W, and SW, and S.



I'm going to try zooming scout around to see how many more people are within 9 tiles of me....... Also, you will get an updated pick analysis at some point, because ya, small meant tight lol.

[pindicator]

Ugh, Tarkeel can plant a lovely city W-SW of his fish, and while it might be a little low on food it will have all kinds of great resources.

Would you scout to the rice next or go SE onto the other plains hill first?

Of the two spots you have marked as possible city #3/#4 I think I lean towards the northern gems spot first. It will grow faster by being able to work a rice straight away.

[pindicator]

Micro is pretty much what I had figured from this start. I had actually worked up something for Ag > AH > BW (before we had played any turns and realized how important Hunting is going to be), but this is just better to go Hunting anyway because the plains forest hill really makes building that settler easier, and so the wheat and cow really have no difference as to which gets improved first.

Spent the longest time trying to figure out where we lost a beaker on Hunting until I realized that one of our neighbors probably knows Agriculture and we lost it on rounding due to that. Completely unimportant, but I was stuck on it anyway.

Can't see any improvements or changes I'd make. Good stuff. Really hope we find something great in the south that makes us rethink where city #2 goes.

[pindicator]

Early worker turns = improve rice > wheat > cow > 2 turns rd
T22 Grow size 3, start settler
T28 worker rds 1 west of cow
T29 settler, 50% research
T30 settle new, worker starts improvig rice, 100% research, take cow 1 turn

Just looking at this first part, there is an alternative opening where you make the settler at size 2. I didn't think it would work out, but it gets you city #2 two turns earlier (t28) in exchange for growing to 3 a turn later (t30). Depending how fast you feel the first settler needs to be it could be worthwhile. I'll post the details after I walk the dog (he's sulking at my feet as I've been thinking this out) just to show because the build order is a little counter intuitive and imo one of the fun quirks of civ4 micro.

[pindicator]

I'm sure you noticed there were a few problems with starting the settler right at size 2 when you were doing your sim:

1. The first warrior is only at 12/15 hammers when you reach size 2, so you have to spend an extra turn to finish the warrior
   
2. When you start working the settler your best tiles are a rice and plains forest hill (at least until the worker finishes improving the wheat), which puts you at 3f 5h and only 11 food-hammers so that the settler only comes out on turn 28

Even if you spend that last turn finishing your warrior working the unimproved wheat and a plains-forest-hill tile to get the maximum overflow into your settler, you are still only at 97/100 hammers on your settler on turn 27.  Since that is only 1 turn faster than the size 3 version it doesn't seem like much of a trade-off.

However, there is a neat trick to get those extra 3 hammers and shave a turn off of the settler! The principle is only to grow when you have improved tiles. So as soon as you finish the worker on turn 12, you immediately start the settler.

T12 - start settler with citizen on the plains-forest-hill, worker moves south and partially builds a road
T13 - settler at 7/100, worker starts the wheat. The wheat is needed first because otherwise you don't finish the warrior at the same time you grow to 2.
T16 - settler at 28/100 and worker puts his 4th turn farming the wheat. Swap off the settler now and start the warrior, with the city working the unimproved wheat. We'll grow in 5 turns and at 3hpt will also build the warrior in 5 turns.
T17 - Wheat is improved, continue working the now-improved wheat
T18 - worker northeast, finish the road
T19 - worker moves to rice, starts farming the rice
T21 - Grow to size 2, warrior is finished. Back to the settler, city on the Wheat and plains-forest-hill tiles for 12 food-hammers per turn. With 72h to go the settler will finish in exactly 6 turns.
T23 - Rice is finished, city swaps to working the Wheat and Rice tiles (still 12 food-hammers, but one more commerce)
T24 - worker loses a turn moving into the city.
T25 - worker starts improving the cow
T27 - settler finishes. Capital stays on Wheat & Rice to grow to 3 in 3 turns.
T28 - city #2 founded, worker finishes the cow, city #2 can work the improved cow immediately while the capital grows to 3.
T30 - capital to size 3

From here you can transition back to the micro you have already done. There are 3 big differences up to now:

1. City #2 comes 2 turns earlier and can start working an improved Cow straight away
   
2. The capital grows to size 3 a turn later
   
3. The worker lost a worker turn because the pathing is less efficient, and this will cause issues with micro later on, I'm sure.
   

Also, I'm pretty sure BW gets delayed a turn this way too, due to less commerce, but I haven't really dug in to see if you can micro your way out of that.

It's closer than I thought it would be. I still favor the size 3 version unless you find something in the next couple of turns that screams: I need that as a 2nd city and I need it now! (Something like what Tarkeel has S-SW of his fish )

EDIT: Also, if you decide that you really do want to settle up on someone and Skirmisher rush them, this is probably the way to go.