[SPOILERS] The Subjuggulator's Mirthful Messiahs (Kuro, Gamzee of Balsegraphs!)

[Kuro]

So basically Hyborem can be beelined for major lulz but otherwise isn't that great. I guess.

Hmmm...do I get the shrine benefits of Nox Noctis even if I'm not in their religion? If so, since it requires Trade(something I'm liable to want for the trade routes, I think), I could found it and build the shrine either way. Way of the Wicked provides Slavery, which since I'm evil seems like it could be a good idea, and if I decide to hear for the Ashen Veil then it's required. Unfortunately, the free Great Merchant tech is Merchantalism, which seems very pricy. We would have to generate our own Great Merchant. Either way, as I understand it, Nox Noctis = Basically unstoppable defense once you get a little magical collatoral in your borders.

I know you said they don't provide much other than Gibbon, but what do they provide, anyway? The Civilopedia link for the Council of Esus is so outdated it has no links.

Stygian Guards do look good...but I'm not sure if it is worth going to OO for. I think if I went OO, it'd be for Hemah and maybe Saverous(I dunno if Saverous is actually any good, but I could see a STR 8 w/ Bronze unit with Hero being good). Cultists seem good, but a bit neutered on the map. Oh, wait, I just realized...I guess only OOs can go to Slavery? That's a reason to run OO. Drowns are...okay, but not great on this not watery map. Aslyum looks nice.

Order doesn't seem worth it.

Ashen Veil gets me collatoral(I get the feeling I keep not spelling that right) with Ritualists. How does the Demon's Altar's "sacrifice pop for research" work? Sacrifice the Weak: If you won't starve from unhealthiness, then whoa. +10% Gold is nice, but only one food per pop? I guess it'd be hard to starve with that. Rosier seems a bit lame as a hero, but he IS a 3 move, STR 8 unit with Hero. I'm sure that has some use. Mardero doesn't seem bad, but comes soooooo laaaaate it's not worth anything. PS: What does Hellfire do?

Runes of Kilmorph gives the best religion-per-city bonus of gold. It also allows Arete, which is nice, but not too great. Everything else is decidedly meh. I think if we get Spiritual early, we might go for it to fund early expansion and then switch when we get a better economy up(Even if we have to eat anarchy the second switch: We would have too anyway).

Empyrean gives us Radiant Guard, which is a pretty nice draftable unit. Rathas high speed and ability to blind is nice, but...shrug. They don't seem as good as some of the other religion's options. Their Priest line gets them Crown of Brilliance(I think) @ High Priest, which is pretty nice. They also get Revelation, which isn't bad and would especially be useful against Veil of Night. Of course, the real reason to go Empyrean is for Chalid, which is just silly when you have a decent amount of Sun Mana. We should see how many Mana Nodes are around.

Fellowship of Leaves doesn't seem like it'll have much I want. Priests are okay, but I can't really abuse Bloom. Everything else seems very meh.

Right now, it looks to me like AV and OO are tops, with Esus kind of sitting there until I know what units they get and Empyrean an outside option. If I get Spiritual early I may head to Kilmorph for early Gold, as I'll need Mining anyway because a Rainforest game really requires chopping(I'll need BW early too. Rainforest has a LOT of Jungle).

[Amelia]

Esus gets you Gibbon, Nightwatches, Shadows, and Shadowriders.

Nightwatches are slightly stronger Longbows, Shadows are slightly stronger Assassins, while Shadowriders means you can get 4 more knights (for a total of 8 instead of the usual 4).

.... Yeah. That's it? Also getting the tech for Esus allows you to go undercouncil, which has a host of benefits, far more than overcouncil.

[Kuro]

According to another PBEM topic I read, the Council of Esus also means your units are not ejected when you war dec. True? Or is it just Esus units?

Hmm...all this makes me think, at some point(Maybe another FFH PBEM if it's up), I have to go for the Sidar, Council of Esus, Into the Mist and then just war dec someone next to their cities where they cannot even see.

I actually kind of like what I see with Esus. Nox Noctis seems insane. Shadows seem really nice too albeit probably too late(Too bad I don't think I can attack w/o war deccing...Or do Nightwatch keep their Hidden Nationality when promoting?). Shadowriders look nice but I'm guessing that they come too late to matter.

I actually think I'll consider them, but IDK if there's enough to really use them. I might go for it just for Undercouncil, at least. I mostly get the impression going down the Assassin line and such isn't very strong even if they have cool units...

Oh, and as I understand it, Gibbon + Puppets = Non-Illusionist summons(And Keelyn of course gets more). Considering Deception comes early, Gibbon is possible.

A Prophet can build all the Shrines, right?

[Amelia]

False. It is all hidden units, to the best of my knowledge. Since most of Esus units are hidden, that is why it is said, but using Sidar's into the mist works as well.

Edit: Promotions don't remove HN, the only way to remove it is to declare it yourself (or get it killed...)

[Kuro]

Hmm...so could I upgrade a Nightwatch into a Shadow(Through Assassin) to get a unit with both HN and Invisible(So I can attack w/o declaring war while invisible)? I'm guessing Hawks can see even invisible Shadows, though...

[Caustic Soda]

With this map, AV and Esus are probably the long-term religions to go for. Note that you needn't be running Esus to run Undercouncil, you just need the tech. Similarly with Shadows, you just need Esus in the city you want to build them in. I don't know what Hellfire does, exactly, since my games have never lasted long enough for Mardero to be relevant. IIRC, running Av also provides the option of building Beasts of Agares eventually, which are massively powerful and arrive by late midgame or early lategame, if you prioritize getting them.

Researching the Esus tech get's us Undercouncil. Founding Esus gets us Nox Noctis. Running Esus gets us Gibbon for an early archmage, and possibly Shadowriders. The rest are either marginal or don't require you to run Esus.
Founding AV gets us the shrine, which provides Entropy Mana for Rust. Running AV can get us Rosier and Beasts of Agares, and allows us to tech to Infernal Pact for the Grimoire and StW. Running Av for a limited period of time can get us Ritualists and Running AV does come with opportunity costs in the form of Hyborem, Blight and possibly the Horsemen. We do not want hell terrain to spread to us, so if we go for Infernal Pact we should have a force ready to stomp on Hyborem if he spawns near us.

It seems to me that the ideal play would be to found Esus for the shrine and Undercouncil, possibly go with it for a bit for Gibbon and the possibilty to blitz with Hidden units. Then switch to AV for a strong army and StW. Even running AV for a bit could help get a good army, but I think StW really is one of , if not the, strongest civics you could possibly run.

[Kuro]

Yeah, true on not needing to run Esus for Undercouncil. Personally, the idea of Gibbon +/Hidden units transitioning into AV. I presume that we're going for a Domination/Conquest victory? That's what I figured anyway.

Actually been playing around with AV, both times Hyborem started right by me, first time I did it and was not prepared heh(I'm winning the game, but the apoclyspe might happen before I actually win), second time Sheaim were out and founded it while I was Esus.

Not sure if Ritualists could be used with the Gibbon thing, probably not, but if so that'd be pretty nice. A mid/late game romp with Agares(When I got them in my one game they were pretty much 90%+ odds on everything, but then again I heavily beelined...) + Ritualists/their upgraded High Priest form I forgot. I presume Mardero comes too late to help?

If I had to choose one to found though, I'd choose Esus, just for Nox Noctis. That thing still seems so silly. Nox Noctis + Ritualists would be a damn hard defense to break, wouldn't it?

[plako]

Lots of dicussion here. Hard to keep up so I just throw couple of things that came in my mind now that I cursively did go through the thread:
* There should be plenty of mana around. I would suggest going heavy on magic. Puppets are your advantage over the others there. Let's hope we retain Arcane and possibly get Summoner that would make very powerful combo. You obvivously need to get your economy running and possibly some religion earlier, but KotE should be one of your early goals.
* Arena's can be used to arrange Gladiator battles. If I remember correctly half of the time your unit dies and other half they gains experience. Battles give also happiness to the city.
* None of Balseraphs unique units is specifically powerful. Freaks are ok and early. Harlequins with Taunt are ok, but Animal Handling is deep in the recon line. You really need to make desicion, if you want to go there early and I think in most cases it might not be good idea. Other UUs really doesn't look impressive over the units they replace.
* Concerning religions CoE and AV sound both good for you. However I'm sure CoE shrine won't be easy to get. Nox Noctis is definately a beeline target for many. On thing you should consider is that the double length golden age might give you options to switch between religions and build Priests from several of them without being Spiritual.

[Kuro]

Oooh...that's actually a good point on the Golden Age. I definately didn't think of that.

KotE? Knowledge of the Ether, right?

[plako]

Oooh...that's actually a good point on the Golden Age. I definately didn't think of that.

KotE? Knowledge of the Ether, right?

Yes. Obviovously also some earlish hero with channeling III should be quite high in your priorities.