Learning Capria FFH SG

[Brian Shanahan]

Will I play the first set up until Ag comes in? That way we can decide then what to do. And do you want me to move the settler or will we finish discussion on where to start first?

[kjn]

My mind is pretty made up right now: I'm confident settling 1N or 1W of Patria is best (my earlier discussion presupposes 1W of Patria), so if you agree we can move the settler 2SE-2NE and end turn.

Post a screenshot, and we can decide where to settle.

[kjn]

The metric for AH vs Calendar was quite easy (time of first settler), but calendar v chants/education/mysticism is thornier. What should we measure?

Vallus will generate 6C base at size 2 (1 in each city from trade, 1 from city centre, 1 from sheep, 2 from unimproved/farmed cotton). A plantation will improve that to 8. Total from the two cities will be 16 (18 with a plantation) commerce, effectively 15-17 after maintenance is paid.

Say that the cotton is farmed first, then the sheep pastured, and then the cotton plantationed. The plantation will be done on turn 65 or so.

AC will require 119 beakers, with no requisite bonus. If we do calendar first, then we start AC on turn 56 and will get AC in 8 turns, ie turn 64. Add a turn of cash (since the cotton will be online next and I don't have to consider two different values). Mysticism (299 beakers) will take 15 turns, circa turn 80. Education (419 beakers) will take 21 turns. That means Vallus will probably be at size 5 when education does come in on turn 85 (and will thus need the cotton for avoiding unrest).

If we avoid calendar for a while, then we start AC in turn 36. AC in at turn 47. Mysticism will get 130 or so beakers in the ten turns before Vallus, and the rest in a further ten turns. Mysticism at turn 67. Revolt to God King, and say that Torrolerial generates 8 hammers base per turn. We will have the Elder council at turn 72 and can start generating a Great Scientist for an academy in Vallus.

Can we have calendar by turn 85 then? We have 17 turns, 5 at 15 (base) or so research and 12 at 20 (base). Easily - we will have calendar no later than turn 78, just in time for plantationing the cotton.

Going with education first, we would start that on turn 47. 130 beakers before Vallus, the rest in a further 17 turns. Education at turn 74, and we can start growing cottages from turn 75 or so.

I have no idea if such an early education is worthwhile.

[Brian Shanahan]

Ok I'll do that now. I think towards the east is the strongest start (hopefully not into the teeth of someone though).

[Brian Shanahan]

I have no idea if such an early education is worthwhile.

Way I see it is that it depends on two things,

1) What resources will we be using (i.e. will we have seafood, AH resources)?

If it's pretty much what we see as is, then early Education for cottage spam is optimal, if we have a 3 fish site with the remnants and corn (we can but pray) then not optimal.

2) Our neighbours.

The barbs for one, though warrior spam will blunt them. But if we settle into the teeth of an evil civ then we could be hurt by bad relations and military techs may be our solution.


[SIZE="4"]Edit: Major happenings[/SIZE]

First of all I moved as perscribed:

As you can see the only new resource is deer on tundra (4food1hammer when improved), and an out of range crab. There is lots of lovely green though.

Then I heard the lilting pipes of a people who've never lost their virginity:

Unfortunately it wasn't the hot chick who doesn't understand the meaning of pants (in any sense of the word), but the angsty teen man-chick, so get used to hearing the greeting "heus nautat!" a lot.

And just to show where emo boy turned up:

And all that with five clicks of a mouse! Am I good or what?

Proper answer is a kick in the gilly goolies.

[SIZE="4"]Edit the second:[/SIZE]
The deer are up in the top corner of pic one under the word agriculture in the tech bar. I decided to throw the tech on as it is our first choice.

Edit the third!:
[url="http://www.mediafire.com/?xkv553654u5386h"]
The save[/url].

[kjn]

Holy production, Batman!

If we settle 1W of Patria, I get it to one (1) irrigatable corn (7F), one (1) riverside grass hill Remnants of Patria (1F 6H 1C), one (1) sheep (5F 1C), and six (6) grass hills, three (3) of them riverside (6F 18H 3C), and last the city centre tile (2F 1H 1C).* Round it out with 11 grasslands.

Ie, at size 9 we will have 21F 25H 6C.

The tile 1N of Patria will be coastal, pick up 4 coast (1 fogged), the deer, what I think is a fogged grass hill forest, and a grassland hill. It will lose three grassland tiles (but those will be shared by city #2), and the grass hills south of the sheep. I get it to 7 grass hills (one tentative), 4 coast (1 fogged), 1 tundra deer, Patria, sheep, corn, and 5 grassland.

Which is better?

1N has a little more production, fresh water, coastal for trade routes and extra health, deer on tundra, chance for a seafood in the fog, remote chance for another deer on a better tile.

1W is more defensible, won't have to worry about giant waves, will help the development of the sheep-cotton city and a city due south by the silk, leaves the frozen deer for people who will appreciate it better (is there a forest on it?), leaves a fogged fish (if any) for a filler city, and has plenty of nice cottagable tiles if we want to do that later on, or can use for workshops if we decide we need more production (though I can't imagine why).

I think the 2N suggestion is due to the deer, and not seafood.

So I think short-term 1N is better as a single city, but for the empire as a whole 1W is superior. We take a health hit to get more culture inland so new cities can start with some key tiles already improved. 1W also means that we can have a fluid reserve between the cotton and corn that can reach either city within one turn.

I'd be happy with either site.

On second thought:

Primo: We have a monster production capital
Secundo: We are industrious
Tertio: BUILD ALL THE WONDERS!

So if we want a super-wonder-spamming city, then I guess 1N is the way to go. 1W will be more conventional gameplay.

The next pending question is if we should go down, sorry, come down like an avalanche on Amelanchier. We have a decent buffer area in the eastern coastal region. There is space for a cramped filler city on the river, but I think it will be more important to expand south and claim the area around the silk. It's not like he can compete culturally with our capital.

We can afford to wait until AH is in, anyway, and see how things develop. It's not like he can match our early production potential, anyway. But I think a city by the silk maybe should be our city #2. Otherwise we will have a hard time expanding southwards, and he can threaten both the city on the estuary, our capital, and the cotton-sheep city.

* Calculations are an estimate. The calculations assume that the technologies Agriculture, Calendar, Animal Husbandry, Crafting, Mining, Masonry, Ancient Chants, and Education all have been researched. It also assumes that at least one source of additional happiness has been obtained, and that Agrarianism is in use or that Sanitation has been researched.

[Hart]

I have the save working properly now.

kjn: Where were you thinking of putting the silk city?

Le Edit: I think 1W of Patria is the way to go. The tundra deer could be justified with a terraforming upgrade later on - but that's not until you get archmages.

[Hart]

Okay. A few more detailed thoughts on placement.

As kjn detailed, GREEN gets the coastal (and riverside?) bonuses for health, making it ideal for wonder spam - in particular the Great Lighthouse and Heron Throne (which would make all those water tiles much more useful). That said, we don't know much about the terrain to really judge whether that's going to be useful enough.

Tile for tile, YELLOW is better. Without knowing what that lower question mark is (I'm guessing a forest grassland, no hill), they get almost identical tile counts.

BLUE is where I would consider putting the second city. Perfect commerce site. Cottage the cotton tile, unless we desperately need the happiness boost. You could also settle on the dotted circle, which has the advantage of being able to use the corn from the capital. But then the culture wouldn't seal off the western mountains quite as early. You also get an extra riverside cottage, at the cost of 1 forest GL hill, and a smattering of extra GL's, and you lose the forest on the hill we would settle on.

CYAN is just a thought for the silk city - we really need to scout down there ASAP. MAGENTA, as discussed, is a secure site already thanks to geography.

Strategy: Wonder Spam? I'm not sure how this will work out. The GLH is just as powerful here as in BTS, but... I dunno. The map will decide, I guess.

[kjn]

I have the save working properly now.

kjn: Where were you thinking of putting the silk city?

Le Edit: I think 1W of Patria is the way to go. The tundra deer could be justified with a terraforming upgrade later on - but that's not until you get archmages.

Excellent!

Down south :neenernee We don't know enough of the geography there yet, and have to find some food first. It must go on a hill, however, since it will be our primary border city with Amelanchier, so depending on the food situation it will have to go on your Cyan, 1E of it (this one is probably a war declaration), or 1SW of it. Yellow dot will pick up the silk with third-ring culture, so it's no big deal if it's second-ring for Cyan 1SW.

On the other hand, I doubt we can get out our settler until turn 55 or so (we can shave off 5 turns by building one less warrior), so we have time to scout the south, before the warriors are needed to guard the settler and worker. Maybe a party of 1 scout and one warrior.

Due to the closeness of Amelanchier, I also think we might have to push Cyan up to being our second city. Blue is by where we started, so should be safe a bit longer.

Okay. A few more detailed thoughts on placement.

Nice dotmap! How did you make that one?

Anyway, both yellow and green are very strong production cities, but yellow will do more to help the rest of the empire. Green makes sense if we want to do serious wonderspamming, but I'm not sure that's a route we want to follow.

BLUE is where I would consider putting the second city. Perfect commerce site. Cottage the cotton tile, unless we desperately need the happiness boost.

Poor cotton. First farmed, and then cottaged. But I think we will need the happiness. We only have two happiness resources early game, but we have food to support much larger cities. After all, we don't have to work the cotton.

You could also settle on the dotted circle, which has the advantage of being able to use the corn from the capital. But then the culture wouldn't seal off the western mountains quite as early. You also get an extra riverside cottage, at the cost of 1 forest GL hill, and a smattering of extra GL's, and you lose the forest on the hill we would settle on.

I think that placement only makes sense if we take green as the capital.

CYAN is just a thought for the silk city - we really need to scout down there ASAP. MAGENTA, as discussed, is a secure site already thanks to geography.

See above for Cyan. Magenta should go 1NE, I think. Defensibility from land won't be a problem, and 1NE is more sheltered from naval attacks. It can help grow cottages for blue, can borrow the sheep for early growth, and get four hills for production, instead of only two. It will also reclaim a riverside grassland that otherwise will be lost.

The cities will be quite close together, but with our lack of visible happiness resources that's not necessarily bad. We can build a road network centered on the hill where the warrior is right now.

Strategy: Wonder Spam? I'm not sure how this will work out. The GLH is just as powerful here as in BTS, but... I dunno. The map will decide, I guess.

Well, Green makes sense if we go wonder-spamming, but it's not an entirely serious proposal.

[Brian Shanahan]

Nice to see a strong three way discussion.

As regards the placement of cities we have to block off Amelenchar first I think, so going for somewhere around cyan would be better.

I'm also thinking an early city S-SE of the capital's Sheep, as an extra two fingered salute to him. It would work out as a beaut of a heron city site (ten sea tiles in the BFC), if there's more hammers in the fog, and we decide to go that way, but it may be too late for it. But it does have decent food and some production.

Now onto the huts. Amelenchars army is two scouts and a warrior. Assuming all flat land or forests between them and cyan area hut they're three turns away from it (6 tiles). Our warrior is also 3 turns away, but has the turn advantage. So a beeline for the hut is needed which will also give us visibility on a lot of the BFC for cyan (or any other city in the area). The other hut is safe and we can leave it a while if needs be.

As regards foreign relations we need to find out where the Ljos capital is too, I'm guessing it's two tiles away (otherwise the scouts would not have been with warrior), and from seeing the animation of them popping out of the fog (I was lucky that's where my mouse fiddling had me), they're SE-SE, SE-S or SE-E of where the boys popped up. An early rush may be advisable, have two capitals and significant backlines to head into. So horsemen may indeed be our option here.