[Spoilers] MJW, the King of Italy BLACK BOOTS (Merovech lurks)

[MJW (ya that one)]

It turns out that Russia and Turkey were not working together otherwise that army movement, ank-->arm, makes no sense. So I could have backstabbed Austria and allied with Turkey or Russia. Oh well... You lurkers can see what happened when I post the CC. At least I lied to scooter to make him waste his turn and allowed Austria to steal Greece. I also talked to Cyne and he got backstabbed by England. Germany and England seemed to be working together so I won't be flanked for quite some time. Also they will stop Russia from getting a build in SWE and quickly sweep them unless Russia ditches turkey. So IF Rowain doesn't backstab me first I think I'm good.... I should note that I knew that what Rowain's orders were and what scooter and TT would do if they were telling the truth.

Or Scooter and TT are right and I'm screwed next year. Oh well...

Oh and TT didn't read my e-mails because I said I tricked Turkey into going into SER. So if he read his e-mails he would have leaked that to turkey (and if turkey calls him a liar he can just carbon copy my e-mails--it's hard to fake my writing style) and the 'juggernaut' would not have allowed Austria to get Greece. So keep that in mind when you read what happens.

[MJW (ya that one)]

If TT and scooter refuse to talk to me I'll just stick with Austria. Even if he backstabs me he deserves it more for humoring me.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Okay I have three possible plans.

1. Attack France. Probably too aggressive. The only reason why I am considering this is that Mattimeo told me that he's attacking Russia. But he could attack Austria and doesn't want to risk a bounce.

2. Backstab Austria. Because Rowain hates TT and I don't like scooter. I will only backstab if I can take on Russia and Turkey together.

3. Continue to support Austria. If he thinks conveying that army in is the best plan I have to wait a turn no matter what because using that army against him would be great!

Time for a CC-gasm. First the last PM before I went all- (e-mail).

What's with the failed supports with England?

I could ask why you decided not to stab a wide-open Austria? With Rum also getting busted, you could've completely wrecked Austria (say, Ion - Gre, Tri H, and Austria's down to 2 centers and dies immediately).

Also, do you use GChat or e-mail at all? It's much easier to keep track of things there IMO than through the PM system.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Cyneheard CC...

I think Scooter was gambling that YOU were the one who was going to stab the triple-alliance against him; look at his moves and how they'd have worked with Tri H.


Me, I was just trying to be unpredictable. Pure WIFOM situation. If I'd done the "safe" bounce in Brest, I'd have been in a ton of trouble (and possibly forced to build F Mar, which wouldn't have made you happy).

- Cyneheard

Hello Cyneheard,

Thank you then. (-: So what's with you ordering support England fleet in? I guess that England said that he's going for BEL and then backstabbed you? Well at least we are both winning from the DMZ for now...

Goodbye,
MJW

England's been tough for me to figure out all game. We were going to leave Eng alone, then he changed his mind, then I thought we'd smoothed it over....

I'll also add that Brick missed my orders because I sent them in VERY early. They had an error too (I copied from Rowain) which Brick allowed me to correct; otherwise my armies would hold.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Mattimeo CC. Next up I'll make one post for TT, Scooter and Rowain. I'm telling the truth in the save for not telling Rowain to his face that I'm thinking of stabbing... Oh, so I don't forget Rowain said "****" and was not auto-censored from my end.

Sorry, thought I'd sent a mail to you guys already :/


You certainly got Rowain trusting you there. Any chance you'll spill the beans on if you're going through with the Key Lepanto if if you're stabbing?
Going reasonably up here. I should get two centres, maybe a third depending on how Bel turns out. You're looking good for two as well. Might even be able to develop Italy into a reasonable position, with France and Turkey both looking to be on the defensive.

Not unless we can work together somehow. I don't see how that's possible because you are moving away from the action around A/I/R/T for now. So unless you are on the fence about moving into SWE I don't know what I could tell you.

Later...

You guys came out of that well. Two builds, and continued good relations with Austria.


Anything relevant for next year discussion? A Mun is guaranteed, and I'm assuming A Ven is at least somewhat likely. I'd like to refresh the concept of Tyr being impassable, pending discussion with Rowain on the subject (though I can't see many reasons why he wouldn't also agree).

Hello Mattimeo,

I might want to move Vie-->Tyr to attack Russia. If you are planning something anti-Russian (build a fleet in Berlin or try and take SWE again) I will drop this request.

Bye bye.

I'm planning on having a Berlin-built army head east, Sil or Pru, to be able to interact with Warsaw for this autumn.

Okay, that's anti-Russian. TT hates our guts so you should be good. So if you go there it's okay for my army to idle for a turn. So I won't move to Tyr if you head East.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Rowain CC. Yay. I should note that TT and Scooter's same line about a possible backstab from Rowain are very similar and makes me think they are sharing notes/ideas. Also, that army move to ARM could be a ruse because that army would have a hard time being useful. I could just be seeing things though... Also Scooter wasting his turn doesn't prove anything as TT may not have been reading my e-mails.

Okay then, What should I tell TT and scooter then? I don't have a message pending so I can just wait for you.

I think it's obvious, to scooter, that you would support me in. So if I backstab you I have to squat or move to VIE. So I should suggest to scooter that I'm squatting or moving to VIE after revealing that you are supporting me. I would also say that just picking up TUN is to tempting to me so I'm not moving my other two units elsewhere unless he thinks of something good. If he believes me he's obviously going to SER and wasting his turn which is good.

For TT I can just tell him my orders and that you are supporting me because we are all against scooter for now.

Goodbye

I wouldn't tell too much. Especially to TT. If TT thinks that we 2 are close allies he will side with scooter and we (first me then you) are screwed.

Orders sent and I hope TT does support RUM - BUL else I might end without a new center. I support you into SER so you get 2 SC.

New Subject line: LOL! (it was lol. )

Hello Rowain,

I think we have pissed off TT and Scooter. So they are in an alliance now. Good for us that france has unfinished business and that Germany made an anti-Russian move. I have no idea how to grade the situation. Just that you cannot stab me next year because you would be in a three vs 1. So we are going to have to make a special effort to avoid a situation were a stab is possible and we get SCs.

That or TT and Scooter are right that you will backstab me next year. :-)

What happened in England and France is that England tried to make France make the mistake of going into BRE to stop him attacking. Cyne guessed this play and so passed. He probably thinks he's friend's with Germany so he didn't bounce in BEL for that reason.

Farewell,
MJW

Note: The post below is why I'm pretty sure Rowain won't backstab--he's too angry at TT.

Hello MJW

I have no interest in stabbing you. TT is a fool and judging by the army in ARM I'm not sure those 2 are in an alliance.

For my part I would rather help scooter to kill TT and get rid of this **** than anything else.

-Rowain

Hello Rowain,

Well you seem to be quite annoyed at TT for some reason. You actually used an expletive to describe him. This might be a trap to make me trust you but if it is a trap it's good enough that it deserves to work! I think I'm safe for a year. :-) We need to work on making the situation stable though...

Yes, TT and scooter were not an alliance because of that army move to ARM. But TT really hates us. So unless you can somehow get scooter to attack TT it's going Scooter & TT vs MJW & Rowain. We would probably win if there is not a backstab because I made Scooter waste a turn by saying I would backstab you. I thought scooter was toast, I thought TT would still attack him, so him being mad at me wouldn't matter because he would be dead. Also Germany and England are working together and that helps us indirectly to. By stopping France attacking me and stopping Russia from picking up Sweden.

So I'm just going to sit to see if you can use Scooter to move against TT. That's very unlikely. TT is probably a lost cause. You also need to consider that Scooter might try the same trick I pulled. If scooter tells you to suck it then you need to come up with a tactical plan.

Farewell,
MJW

See dudes people other than me lie though their teeth to make other players waste their turn.

Hi MJW

I have no clue why TT plays the way he does. He agreed to support me into BUL. Had he done that scooter would be down to 3 SC and soon dead.

Anyway I will retreat into GAL now and build an Army in VIE.

Okay then.

I have to tell you that TT and Scooter are probably not on speaking terms for me this year. So if you don't want a slugfest of I+A vs R+T with odds of a wasted turn you have to contact them. Remember my line of scooter trying the same trick I did successfully. If that doesn't work at all you then have to make a tactical plan--you should probably do it as you have greater experience. But I'll come up with something for practice and something to do while you try to diplo.

I also have to tell you Cyneheard told my about that strange movement around France. But you probably already guessed it due to your experience. England backstab France by not attacking Germany. France also correctly guess that England would stop him from getting a fleet by not attacking and allowing the French fleet in to block his build. So the fleet didn't move back. But why he didn't move to POR is beyond me.

Have a good night and try not to have a heart attack of this. This is just a game. :-)

Farewell

Uhm care to enlighten me why you think that neither TT nor scooter will speak with you?

Especially scooter will nearly always try to talk.

Hmm... I think I (and us) need at least one more fleet. I don't think fleet VEN-->ADR does anything. So I'm going to build a fleet in NAP. I think two fleets will be overkill. So I think the best plan is to build a fleet in NAP and an army somewhere else. I'll go with Rome unless you give me permission for VEN. This might allow me to attack France if Germany and England go on but you might not like it. I could also block an attack from Germany if needed...

I'm new at this game so I'd have no idea how you would react if when I do something. Unless it's drastic like squat in TRI. (-:

P.S. Okay. I'll review the PMs to see if they are as negative as I think they are.

I would suggest an Army in VEN as second Unit (F NAP is a given).

Okay then orders sent.

Oh and FYI Mattimeo told me that he's going after Russia next year after prodding him about me moving into TYR.

Goodbye

[MJW (ya that one)]

Scooter CC. For the record I really did think I had an extra day. I suck.

Oh, for context my plan from the start was to make scooter waste his turn because by lying though my teeth. I thought TT would still attack him. I should have told TT that scooter would waste his turn but I thought I had an extra day. But if TT & Scooter were working together this was a good thing. I wonder if my stunt of adding Rowain getting offended pushed Scooter over the edge into wasting his turn.

Subject line is still ')-:'

Hi scooter,

Rowain shoot down a bounce by saying that he would support me. I think he was a bit offended and afraid by my suggestion of F alb-->gre A rum-->bul and A bud-->rum. Not that there's anything he can do about it anymore. So it looks like I'll be squatting.

Do you think that it would be a good idea for my army to go into VIE? This would allow me to flank Austria. You are better at tactics then I'm a so I want your advice. Because I don't trust you, for blackmailing me, you have to back up statements with evidence.

Farewell, MJW

I'm just going to text dump the CC because I'm lazy and tried:
SCOOTER

(I'll reply to this during this afternoon - haven't had the chance yet)

Sent from my phone

SCOOTER
MJW,
Tri-Vie may not be a bad idea. I don't think it makes a massive difference either way. If you really want to ensure Rowain collapses easily, you could support Bulgaria into Serbia. Tri-Vie gives you a little bit of a tactical advantage, but there's always the risk he just builds an army in Tri if he's able to pick up a build somehow. Supporting me into Serbia makes it less likely that he picks up a build, but it puts your army in a slightly less advantageous spot. I think I could go either way on that, I don't think I have a strong preference. Even just ordering Tri HLD does the trick just fine.

Thanks,
scooter - Turkey

MJW
Oh. I have to tell you that he's supporting ME into SER. So you can just walk in if I move or hold my army ether way. I'm pretty sure Rowain is operating under the assumption that if I backstab him he's screwed anyway. So I'll just move to VIE to flank Austria.

SCOOTER
Ok sounds great, thanks. Let me know if you need anything further from me.

Thanks,
scooter - Turkey

MJW
Hi scooter,

I already know my orders (A tri-->vie + convey my other army into TUN) and that's what really counts. So unless someone sends me some big CC Italy is done for today....

Farewell,
MJW

SCOOTER
Great, glad to hear it. Hoping for a good turn for both of us. You did send in your orders, right? Brick is missing them from someone.

MJW
Just check thread again...
MJW
Well I thought I had an extra day... Oh well this doesn't matter as TT is pissed off at me and Rowain so you have no option but to ally with him anyway. At least I know that he's telling the truth about wanting to work with because otherwise he would have leaked my plan moving into SER...
SCOOTER (note: I have no idea if he's actually angry or acting melodramatic. I didn't care how angry scooter would get because I thought he would be dead. )

So what was the point in lying? I'm not surprised but what's the point?

MJW
You would have bounced in Greece so Austria wouldn't have gotten a build for starters...

SCOOTER (This and TT's last line to me makes me suspicious)
Look at the map. Have fun getting stabbed by Rowain next year.
SCOOTER
So obviously I'm a little annoyed at you lying to me repeatedly, but I can get over that. I did start last phase's conversation off with a threat, so how about we call it even and move on.

The problem with this Key Lepanto setup is you really need Turkey to not get to build a second fleet. I'm going to be much harder to kill now with a second fleet. I don't think attacking me is really in your best interest at this point, since that promises stalemate. None of us can really afford stalemate either seeing as Germany just got himself out to 6 centers. So if you're interested in either switching sides or at least looking for a target other than me, I'm open to ideas. It's not really possible for me to stab you at this point seeing as your only nearby center is Serbia, and my fleets can't support my 1 army into Serbia, so you can be pretty confident that I'm just trying to be practical here on what's best for both of us.

No matter what, I will have the fleets necessary to stop you from sailing into aeg/eas and taking my centers. That means it's probably best for us to bury the hatchet and figure out how we can help each other.

Thanks,
scooter - Turkey

MJW (I held off making a reference to OJ pleading 100% not guilty )
Hi Scooter,

Yah... When you said that you would allow Russia to take your SCs I had two options. 1. Backstab Rowain 2. Lie to you. Not saying anything would be the same thing as saying that I'm sticking with Rowain. Not denying guilt when questioned is the same as admitting guilt. So if I lie to you I might as well make you waste your turn.

TT really hates Rowain's and my guts. And Rowain really dislikes TT calling him a "fuck" in an e-mail he sent me. So when I backstab Rowain you can easily keep TT as an ally and beat me up. We are not even on speaking terms anymore. So I figure I have to wait until the north starts pushing Russia so I could take you both on after the stab.

Goodbye,
MJW

[MJW (ya that one)]

The TT CC. I'm not going to read this because it makes me feel because I'm just going to take TT hating my guts at face value unless he contacts me. This is still under the same e-mail subject. I'll just draw attention to TT's last line being the same as scooters I called out.

TT
MJW,

I always knew I was getting BLA once scooter suspected a Lepanto.

Just a thought, given that you managed to get into TRI, could you be convinced to twist the knife into Rowain. We are in a decent position to hurt Turkey, but his position is more defensible than Austria's is. Its possible for you to deny him Greece while I could help Turkey hold BUL and take RUM if we move right. He could crumble very quickly and be deprive a build.

Its up to you really, I'm still planning to attack Turkey, but am thinking that an easier conquest may be in the offing now you have managed to get Tri.

TT
Hi TT,

Picking up Tunis is too tempting for me. I also think scooter will guess rowain is supporting me into SER and use his army to bounce in Greece. So the issue is whether I squat in TRI or not. I won't as that would put you into too strong of a position. You didn't backstab turkey, you just exploited a weakness, but if I squatted in TRI I would backstab Austria. So you could ally with scooter and then I would be stuck without an ally. I'm okay with having fewer SCs if we take out turkey first. Also Key Lepanto is faster for Italy so I would get more city centers than usual if I did plan Lepanto. So trying for more is like pushing your luck. I don't want to do it for my first diplo game

Goodbye,
MJW

TT
I understand MJW, but just to say that if you stabbed Rowain, you wouldn't be without an ally. It is clear in my mind that you are my number 1 choice for a long-term alliance because our centres are far enough apart to make stabs hard and our positions compliment each other.

I did stab scooter as I promised I would stay out of BLA and would move my units towards Rowain, not him. Now I see as the perfect time to hit Rowain and use a desperate scooter to help who we can then stab later. He is facing oblivion if he doesn't cooperate with us, so he's much easier to get onside than Rowain is. If you don't squat in TRI, he gets 2 builds potentially of which one will have to be in TRI. You will struggle to get back into it again so easily. You squat in Tri, Rowain stays in BUD as he is supporting you, and no matter how many centres he takes, he only has one unit centre free to build in. Take Tunis and you get 2 builds still, but a much better position than if you take Serbia.

You take Serbia and that army is cut off and reliant on the support of Rowain in the spring. You keep Tri and you can likely hold it and be much stronger. That play is much stronger and will honestly put you in a better position for a quick and popular victory. I will also commit to ensuring that we keep Turkey as bottled up as possible so that we can prosper. I have some issues in the North soon, so I will leave more of the South centres to you.

Think about it,
TT

MJW
Hi TT,
I'm sorry. I just cannot trust someone who backstabbed someone else on the last turn. And I think backstabbing Austria would require trust from you. If you attack Turkey this turn, limiting your options, I can start to trust you again. You will also start being under pressure in the north so it would be harder to hurt me.

My not backstabbing will work even better for you than on paper. Scooter said that he would insure that Russia gets all his centers if I don't backstab this turn. So this is even better for you. I lied to him of course so he will move assuming that I will backstab. He will also try to walk into SER but won't so he will also not get any builds. So you can sweep him and take all his centers. I know scooter plays to win but if I/A/R continue raping him he will suicide so this will be a poison pill in later games.

Farewell,
MJW

TT
MJW,

I'm going after Austria with Turkey. I need a quick victory for the north to work for me and scooter will hold me back a lot longer than Austria could.

scooter told you that he would give all his centres to me to eat you on side. I suggested that plan. This was exactly how we agreed the plan would go. It looks like a full stab on Turkey, he gets pissy to get you on side and we draw Austria out of position with your predictable lepanto and we then turn the tables on him.

You can either stick with Austria and be stuck in a 2v2 stalemate that basically dooms us all as Germany & England are already fully set in the other theatre, or you attack Austria with us, get a quick victory and I guarantee that the final two people in our theatre will be me and you as all he strategy articles say that a RI alliance is one of the strongest.

Its up to you, but swapping sides is the only way to ensure a quick victory.
TT

TT
By the way, if you needed more convincing, you will get much more of the Balkans working with me than with either of the others.

I will soon have to focus north and I will give you free reign to take pretty much as much as you can defend that gives me enough to stalemate the north early on.

Austria cannot be trusted to keep their word when your home centres are so close. Nor can they stop the Eng/Ger alliance in the north.

Scooter is pretty screwed long term while I hold BLA and he's even less capable of holding the North and you will end up with fleet conflicts.

Work with me on this and take out Rowain and I guarantee noone else will offer you a better set of terms or chance of winning than I will.
TT

MJW (note: I have no idea if what TT or I is saying is BS or not. Also all these messages were sent after the deadline that was missed to due Brick missing my PM.)
Hi TT,

The big problem I have is that you can still work with scooter and the turkey+russia "the juggernaut" alliance is much more common than Russia+Italy. Scooter can forgive and you can put your fleet in RUM. Rowain and I would be hampered by me wasting a turn and not trusting eachother. You didn't backstab scooter; you just exploited his weakness. And I have very cold feet from you ignoring my points in my e-mail too. You just pushed me into stabbing Austria like crazy and that makes me think that you are in an alliance perhaps.

You can get my trust by moving A SER ---> arm. This would be really good for you as you would get all of Turkey! Scooter said that he would insure that Russia would get all his centers if I didn't backstab Austria so he would help turkey crumble even faster than Austria would. You would get all three of his centers...

Farewell,
MJW

TT

MJW

I assure you 100% that I am not interested in a juggernaut. Every strategy article I have read on Russia points to the strength of an italian alliance, and as I have played as Italy before, I am extra familiar with it.

I want to work with you, but defeating Turkey will take longer than Austria and we will not have this chance again. You will not hold Tri again for a very long time and Eng and Germany will be the dominant players and we are all screwed.


scooter can be crippled much easier than Austria in the medium term. Give Rowain a start and you are done. scooter is moving the way we need him to, so is Rowain. Just stab Austria or our game is done.


We waste another year with this and we have no chance.

I am not stabbing scooter and that is final. I have promised you the lions share of the spoils from this and you still don't trust me. You will never be able to trust anyone here and yours and Austria's home centres are much too close for your dream alliance to survive to the end game.

Ours can. But if you can't see the wood from the trees then we are all doomed. I've tried my hardest but in the end its up to you. If we're at a 2v2 next year so be it. But I will ignore the north and focus on screwing you and Rowain until I die.
TT

MJW
Oh, fuck me I thought I had an extra day to change my orders. Oh well. I guess I'll see if I should have trusted you from your lurker thread. Because you could'nt do anything after my after deadline post this doesn't have to have a mod intervene.

TT
Just look at the Gamestate thread to see that you should've trusted me

[MJW (ya that one)]

Oh, Turkey moving into the Black sea is not a stab because of Turkey doesn't get help from Russia against A+I it's screwed anyway. If TT was reading my posts he would at least react to me offering Turkey on a platter. So I ticked him off a lot (ie enough for him to stop reading my e-mails) or turkey and TT were allied from the beginning and TT got lazy and just pushed me to stab aggressively.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Not much happening.... :zzz: I found this amusing post:

http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewt...21&t=20060

Lurkers post crap in my thread!