[SPOILERS] Northstar of the Svartalfar v Bob the Great of the Malakim

[Northstar1989]

-deleted-

[Qgqqqqq]

Wrong thread for the Lanun thing.

[Northstar1989]

Wrong thread for the Lanun thing.

Oops!

[Northstar1989]

OK, so another turn, and my Workers have begun building another Farm:



Once it's done I will build a Road, then another Road to the northwest, followed by another Farm there...


The sooner I get another city built the better, as Bob's population is growing quite quickly:



The Demographics also don't look particularly encouraging:



Based on his food-production of only 14 (for 5 population) I can conclude he probably isn't working both the Cows and the Rice, though- if he was, he would have 9 food from that, 2 from his capital, and then somehow only be producing only 3 food and 5 hammers with 3 population, which wouldn't make sense (any combination of Forest Grasslands and Forest Plains is going to yield 9 food+hammers, not 8...)

In fact, Bob's current hammer-production of 8 (with 5 population) can GREATLY narrow down the possibilities of what tiles he might be working and has been teching. He is clearly working Rice (5 food, 0 hammers) with at least one population. He is probably getting another 2 food/2 hammer from his capital (the palace yields 1 hammer as well as the city). That leaves 7 food and 6 hammers to 4 population- which is basically impossible at our current tech-level (no combination of Farms, Forested Grasslands and Forested Plains can yield this many of both food and hammers without improvements using only 4 population) without Agrarianism.

So, the *most likely* scenario is that he has an additional Farm and has already teched Festivals and is running Agrariansim. In which case, we get 8 food from Rice+capital, 2 hammers from the capital+palace, and 6 more food and 6 hammers from 4 population working other tiles (which is right on-target from a combination of Forest Grasslands and Forest Plains).

His GNP is also rather high, though- so I don't know what to make of that. If he had settled on the Jungle SW of the start and was already working the Incense and Rice, that would explain it- but then he couldn't possibly still be producing 5 food and 5 hammers from the remaining 3 population that would leave him... (unless he were currently building a Warrior with Nationhood- and he was getting an extra hammer from that...)


The good news, if I am reading all of this correctly, is that Bob probably hasn't been building any additional Settlers yet (or else his population wouldn't be this high). He might be attempting an early Axemen-rush based on his high GNP and observing my low soldier-counts, though. IF he tries a rush, that Tiger could present a rather nasty surprise for his army (at its current level of promotion it has odds on any unit he could possibly train in the near future, even Axemen), as should the fact that my capital is on a hill. Nevertheless, training some additional Warriors and Scouts is probably in my best interest as soon as I finish my Settler if his soldier-count continues to rise...

Also, Bob's happy-cap should only be 5 unless he has already built a Pagan Temple (which he shouldn't have access to yet if he rushed Agriculture and Festivals instead of Mysticism). So, he shouldn't be able to grow too much more without building Settlers- whereas my economy will start to pick up steam with my ability to build Farms under forests... (and I also intend to pump out a third Settler not long after my 2nd- after I build a Warrior to allow my capital to grow to size 4 of course...)


LURKERS, I assume that civics-bonuses (such as from building military units with Nationhood) and trait-bonuses (such as double-production on temples with Spiritual leaders) impact the hammer production totals under Demographics? What else affects it? Does overflow count as well?


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

I know chops, and building rushes (via engineers, slavery, supplies and etc.) aren't applied, so I'm pretty sure overflow wouldn't be, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'm virtually certain NH would be. Do remember, though, that NH isn't factored in until 10hpt is reached, and before that it can be an active malus (as overflow from military units divides it out).

[Northstar1989]

Also, I just would like to say- if Bob defeats me with an Axemen-rush, it will mostly be due to the pure dumb luck of my losing ALL THREE of my earlier Scouts to that Tiger and Spider...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

before that it can be an active malus (as overflow from military units divides it out).

Oh. I didn't realize that. Doesn't overflow *into* military units (which can easily exceed 10 hammers total production for the first turn) also factor it in to player benefit, though?

In the case that Nationhood really does provide no benefit, I might actually want to switch out of Nationhood to Religion about that time I finish my first Settler (so the turn the Settler is in-transit is when I am in Revolution...)


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

Also, I just would like to say- if Bob defeats me with an Axemen-rush, it will mostly be due to the pure dumb luck of my losing ALL THREE of my earlier Scouts to that Tiger and Spider...

No it won't. It'll be entirely unrelated.

Yes, it does. I'd dispute that it can easily go above 10fhpt, though, at least for the stage in the game I'm talking about.

Edit: Ooh, 6500 posts! Far out, that's 500 in under two months - even including mafia, I spend way too much time here...

[Northstar1989]

Alright, so another turn complete. I want you guys to notice something though...

Count the land tiles in my empire:



Not look at the land tiles Bob has according to the Demographics



33 vs. 31

Meaning, he has exactly 6 water tiles in his empire. So, since I know for sure he settled next to the Rice (based on his early growth-rate) I can conclude beyond a doubt that he must have settled in the Jungle to the southeast of it- as it is the only tile that matches that number of water-tiles...

Meaning, he is probably working the Incense as I suspected earlier, and is probably going for a tech rush-strategy of some sort: very likely an Axemen rush, but knowing Bob perhaps something more exotic...

If I had my Scouts, I would be a LOT less concerned about this- because 3 elven Hunters with free Combat I promotions and likely some experience from fighting wolves/lions would be more than enough to tip the balance against a few Axemen... (obviously I would have tried to upgrade the Scouts as soon as possible)

Given that I don't have those Scouts, there's a decent chance I'm SCREWED though. And don't tell me it was poor strategy on my part or some such like that when this is over Q (because I just know you're going to do that)- I may not know every in and out of Fall From Heaven 2 yet, but you have to admit that losing 3 Scouts in a row like that is BAD, bad luck... (and completely invalidated my civ's natural talent at chocking Bob with recon units early on)


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

I think it would be best if you hit me up on chat sometime after this game is done.

BIG SPOILERS follow, don't open no matter what.

Please, PLEASE hit me up on chat after this. I think there are some integral problems - and yes, they are strategic - with how you're approaching this in-game, and it's clarifying those that would be, IMO, most important in helping you understand and overcome some of what has held you back this game.

For example, here you're jumping to an axe-rush. Why? AFAICT (from this page only, I couldn't be bothered going further) that is solely because his high GNP (and thus tech rate) is making you think he's going to axe rush you. A better thing to look at would be his leaders natural advantages - namely, SPI, early CRE, and the Adaptive change at t70 - and his civs advantages - small economic and strong religious synergy. What do these lead to?

CRE means he has a bit of an advantage early game (as does SPI, to a lessor extent), so a bit more incentive towards early expansion/REXing. SPI means he has strong synergy with religious line, so should head there a) early and b) try to make his army out of that line. ADA means that an army build-up t70ish is a good idea (or timing worldspell for thenish) could be very strong (as could something different, like an ORG economic/longterm military focus, and so on). Worldspell/civ aspects further strengthens religious focus.

Based on this, then, what army options would one go for/expect? Firstly, one of the religions - preferably religious units - so, RoK, OO, FoL, CoE, Empy, Order or Veil. Eliminate CoE and Empy for weak SPI-boosted units, FoL because that's playing for your advantages, and you have 4 religions he might try and kill you with, Veil, Order, RoK, or OO, with two early and two late. The late religions each have the same basic play - massive focus on expansion early, then flip to one of the two late and use it to kill. (Remember, btw, that as SPI it is likely that he'll go more than one religion.) But let's presume he's going for a "rush".

There are two options here, as late religions are a bit late. First, a RoK push with Favored Paramanders and Bambur, possibly with Stonewarden support. That's a strong option, and one that he might well go with. However, the other becomes overwhelmingly likely/powerful when you look at the maps - Cultists. This is a lakes map, so nothing counters OO save over OO units or flying units, he tried to push for Discovery Era (where this is even stronger/faster). Maybe it'll be supplemented by Drown, who knows or cares, because a force of cultists perched around will be able to murder absolutely anything and everything you'll be able to get in time.

His strategy is pretty clearly research worker techs->OO->Philosophy->Priesthood (bulbed)->Worldspell->Profit, expand to 4-5 cities, and then kill you with Worldspell-Cultists + maybe some drown/warriors he cares to bring along for the ride.

This is the thought process I went through the second I heard of his pick, and was confirmed when I saw the map.

Remember, in any game that the civ/leader choice is maybe 30% of what lets you win. Try to work out what strategy your opponent is using when he/she picks, and - especially in a duel - how he/she intends to bring said civ to victory/an overpowered point where they can kill you.


Returning to what spurred this - an axe rush makes no sense for Bob. It isn't synergistic, it'll hit in an era in which you have advantage (AGG), and he has better options. Even Drown-rush would be better, as it fits with his obvious tech plan and works better. Plain axes, at 2 cities (or so), even if he lucks into copper are pretty bad units for a rush, generally. They'll take what, 15-20t to reach you? And in that time you could make your own axes, which would have C1 for free! Or just defend with warriors (using the +25% defence and raw numbers), or get hunters or even fawns in time to kill him off offensively.

And what made you think he was going axes? His working the incense over, based on your tiles, a unimproved grass forest (okay, being mean) a grassland farm. (And not even a Agri one, IIRC.) That's a trade pretty much anyone would make in the early game, once they were (at most) size 3, because the early game is tech- (not production-)constrained.

As to the scouts - IIRC you got unlucky on one battle, and then just got caught out on the others? Sure, sucks. Sure, hurts that it took away one of your advantages. But I would argue that a) your strategic decisions will turn out to have had much more of an effect than those scout losses, and b) that in the concept you're speaking of - the ability to use those scouts later on because of xp gathered and upgrades, especially defensively - their loss will be negligible to the combat by the time you two come to blows.

Why are you researching fishing? I apologize if this was answered earlier :/